Okay so this week

we are going to have our first interview

for this series

and our first ever interview with a politician

on Gary's Economics.

You might remember earlier in the year

I spoke about being approached by Labour

to have politicians on the channel and

we eventually chose not to do it for now

largely because

we need to play a little bit of a game with Labour

for sort of

using what we can to get some influence over them

but also really to be totally honest

one of the reasons we chose not to have politicians

was because I thought most politicians

when they go on TV

when they go on the radio are incredibly boring

they just say their own sort of pat lines

you can tell that

they're just saying what they're supposed to say

and I thought it would be terrible

YouTube basically

but I got contacted by a politician

from another country recently

she reached out to me on Instagram and I was so busy

I forgot to reply and

then last week

I suddenly start getting loads of messages

through loads of channels

from this politician who was saying “listen

I'm an MP in New Zealand

I'm really supportive of wealth taxes

I love the work that you do and I'm here in London

so like please find the time to meet me”.

So I researched a little bit

and I saw that there was

this co leader of the New Zealand Greens

who's been massively supporting wealth

taxes for a long time

I went out and met with her last weekend and she seemed

if I can say honestly like somebody who was not boring

and could talk honestly

and was a little bit thoughtful

about what was happening.

We're here in this space now

where the channel’s growing a lot

and we're starting to figure out,

we'll try and figure out how to influence politicians

how to get involved in politics

how to actually make wealth taxes happen.

So I met with her last weekend and I said

you know what

you seem like a politician who can actually speak

is actually cool

you've flown thousands of miles to be here

we're shooting on Wednesday

why don't you come around and shoot

so this week

our first ever politician on the channel

is gonna be an interview with

Chlöe Swarbrick

co leader of the New Zealand Greens.

Alright so first of all

thank you for flying out here coming such a long way

thank you very much for coming on the channel

it's a pleasure to meet you

some of our viewers won't know who you are

would you be happy to introduce yourself a little bit?

Yeah for sure

My name is Chlöe Swarbrick

I've been involved in politics since I was 23 years old

I guess the long and short of it is that I raged

so hard against the machine

I somehow ended up inside of it.

I'm now 31 years old

and was elected in 2017 as a List MP

so we have something called mixed member proportional

so proportional representation in Aotearoa

New Zealand and then in 2020

I became the MP for Auckland Central

which is the centre of our largest city

which is a city of approximately one and a half,

two million people.

Okay so what made you...

when you first became an MP, is that the right term?

You were, how old were you? 23.

So what made you so

like, keen to get in at such a young age?

I was so angry man

What were you angry about?

hahaha so I had spent

four and a half years on this little radio station

called 95BFM

number one alternative radio station in Auckland

and I've been interviewing these politicians

and community leaders and researchers and academics

and I'd never really understood why

all of the people who had dedicated their lives

to solving these problems

were saying one thing

and the politicians were saying the other

and in 2016 the local body elections were coming up

and I was interviewing the

kind of top four candidates for the Auckland mayoralty

as prescribed by the mainstream media

and I'm a born and bred Aucklander

we've got a lot of problems as a city

but as far as I

was concerned they were our problems

and we had to kind of stay and fight and fix them

and we're experiencing the brain drain

at that time, a lot of my mates were leaving the country

for you know, greener pastures

for lower cost of living

for better job opportunities and god forbid

functional public transport and a decent nightlife

I was complaining about it to my good mate

and producer at the time and she was like

shut up Chloe

go and do something about it

so I googled how to become the mayor of Auckland

I found you had to be over the age of 18

had to pay 200 bucks for administrative fees

and had to have two people nominate you

so I was like, okay cool

I had absolutely no political experience

no idea what the hell I was doing

had never been involved in a political party

I put myself forwards

and just had this really basic thesis

or idea

I guess that god forbid we put ideas on the table and

you know regular people engage with those ideas

and we work together to try and make things better

and obviously I was so young at the time

a lot of people would go at me because of my age

and I'd kind of go, well

very clearly any politician that stands in front of you

and tells you that they know everything

regardless of their age is either lying

to you or completely lacking self awareness

and I'm not sure which of those is worse

so I'm never pretending to have all of the answers

but I'll be crystal clear about what I believe in

and wanna work with the experts

and the people who do know what the answers are

and let's just try and make something of that

you know?

So I wanna talk to you a little bit about politics

because

obviously this is a YouTube channel

primarily about economics and inequality

but in the last like one year

two years we've grown a lot

and it's reached the point where

I feel we need to start

basically trying to influence politics

we've got a new government that's been in for one year

which is Labour, our centre left

party who

you would imagine

should be doing something about inequality

should in theory be open to wealth taxes, but

they haven't really given us much.

So I wanna know a little bit about

your experience in politics and how

if you can sort of give us any advice

how we can influence politics and politicians

because we're at that sort of level

but before we talk about that

I wanna talk a little bit about

New Zealand and the economy in New Zealand

because it's a long way away

most of our, well actually it's quite international now

but most of our viewers are UK,

US, Europe

they might not know that much about New Zealand

you know, other than Lord of the Rings

this kind of stuff so

could you give us like, summarise

what you think are the most

important things we should know about the country

the economy, the economic situation

just a few ideas

how you think it might be similar to what it's like

here in the UK, Europe

the US, how it might be different.

Yeah for sure

so look

first thing I'll say is I love and adore my country

obviously I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't

and I think that we

like so many other countries

have an amazing pool of phenomenal people

who are incredibly hardworking

incredibly creative and incredibly talented

but the problem is, much like here

they are stymied

or blocked from reaching their full potential

because of the way that the economy is rigged

in favour of those at the top.

So to start unpacking that

we had some research

that was commissioned

actually by the former Labour government in 2023

from the Inland Revenue department

our tax department

and what that showed is that at that point in time

the wealthiest 311 households

had a combined wealth of approximately $85 billion

that was more than the bottom

two and a half million New Zealanders combined

bear in mind this is in a country

this is a country of five million people

so that kind of stratification of wealth right

was exposed not just to be kind of an accident or

you know something that just happened.

It is a direct consequence

of what that report also exposed

which is that we have a tax system that says

those at the top pay an effective tax rate

less than half of that of the average New Zealander

and that goes to the core of what

you're always talking about

which is that those who are at the top

are able to arrange their finances in such a way

cause they have access to accountants and lawyers

and otherwise where wealth just kind of begets wealth

and it accumulates

cause they're able to sit on that pile of treasure

whereas regular

working people are paying income tax as they go

so this is resulting very clearly

in a backsliding of the quality of life

and a massive increase in the cost of living

for regular hard working people

and I think that really contradicts

the egalitarian ideas that we have

not only of other people

projecting onto Aotearoa, New Zealand

but also that we even have of ourselves

right? And I think that

you know, another really important point is that

we are an outlier in the OECD

as the only country in the OECD

that doesn't have a form of wealth tax,

inheritance tax

or even a capital gains tax or stamp duty

None of any of those? None of those

and the political debate is so bloody constrained

it is so frustrating because

whenever we try to talk about fixing those scales right

there's this kind of appeal to like

in some ways

this imported notion of the American dream

or this bizarre reference back to how

you know

in our heads we're egalitarian

whereas very clearly an experience and evidence

we're not.

So you, I mean I think

a lot of British people probably do have that kind of

perception of New Zealand

which is that it's more equal

perhaps that living standards are in some ways better

We've got a lot of nature!

But it's interesting to hear then if you actually...

from what you just described

the tax system of New Zealand is even worse

from an equality perspective

than the tax system of the UK

and my sort of big idea

which I always push here on this channel

is if you don't tax rich people

what will happen is

they will accumulate a lot of money very quickly

and they'll use that to buy the assets

and what you'll start seeing is house prices going up

housing becoming less affordable

So I went on the radio yesterday to like a call in

taking calls

actually on Tom Swarbrick’s show

another Swarbrick, two Swarbrick’s in two days

We're not related as far as I'm aware

And Tom said to me

this is like a quite well known radio host here

he said housing is more affordable in other countries

and I said where and

he didn't say New Zealand

but he said Australia so

you're coming here telling me that the tax

situation in New Zealand is even worse,

what's the housing affordability situation?

It's cooked mate

so on some metrics

we'd have

some of the most unaffordable housing in the world

and part of the reason that right now

house prices are stabilising

despite the current government's best efforts

with giving tax breaks out to landlords

and changing the bright line test by which

you know people end up paying taxes

we are now seeing a stabilising or a slight reduction

but that's despite the government's best efforts

so we've got quite a conservative government

at the moment

some economists have characterised our economy as

more of a housing market with bits tacked on the side

and I think that this kind of is

part and parcel of what we were talking about before

with how this kind of inequality compounds right

people are working so damn hard

so many regular people are working so damn hard

as house prices have escalated before their very eyes

over the last you know

few decades and now

regular people are having to rely on

what's colloquially known as the bank of mum and dad

in order to get into their first house

and that then kind of creates this cultural norm

where nobody wants to create a situation

where it seemed that housing would end up being taxed

so the problem continues to perpetuate

and we end up in this kind of parasitic feedback loop

which is squashing regular

hardworking people. This is really

I mean,

it it reminds me so much of what's happening here

which is you have this situation where

because the rich are not taxed

they're accumulating all this money

and that

all that pushes house prices up in an obvious way

because they can

you are competing with them to buy the houses

you know they don't need to buy them themselves

they can just lend the money for the mortgages

if you have these guys who are sitting on the side

and they're gonna buy anything that has a return of

you know

just over 5% you know

unless the house price is above here

they're gonna buy it

so you have to pay this enormous amount

but then what you

what you get is this kind of perverse reaction

which is

because people know then that unless you own wealth

you're like totally screwed

they then become resistant to the taxation of wealth

and my big challenge here

is to try to communicate to people

if you don't tax the wealth of the very rich

you are the one who's gonna be squeezed out

you're not gonna beat them in that game

one of the reasons why I was keen to have you on is because

here in this country we get a lot of people

leave this country to go to Australia

to go to New Zealand

in this pursuit of better living standards

maybe more equal society maybe more affordable housing

and at the same time as British people say that to me like

like I told you this

I got told this on the radio yesterday

we get people in the comments all the time, Australia

New Zealand, Canada

saying even places like Sweden

oh my God it's so much worse

oh my God

it's so much worse here. So

I was keen to have you on

to perhaps communicate to British people, Europeans

Americans who are watching

this is not a problem that you can run away from

because it is a global problem

it's a worldwide phenomenon

Yeah and again

it's gonna require probably

if we're going to do wealth taxation properly

global coordination. Yeah.

But again you know

as I think you frequently point to

it might be really hard to do

but it is the right thing to do

and it's the only thing, it's the

necessary thing for us to do

if we are to arrest this growing wealth inequality

and this is another thing that I think

it's really important for people to understand

is that poverty doesn't come from nowhere

it is directly caused by this tolerance of

that deep wealth inequality

and this is also where you know

for New Zealanders

and probably around the west of the world

to also understand that

instituting these wealth taxes

is not only about arresting that deeply

and quickly growing wealth inequality

but it's also about

bringing back into the collective pool

the resources necessary

to build the foundations of the society that all of us

bloody live in

which goes to the core of the myth of self made

This is the thing I always,

I don't know if I've emphasized it enough

you know this is not

this is not inequality for inequality’s sake

this is if you allow that inequality to rise

what that also means is you losing your assets!

If the 1% owns 100%

what that means is you own nothing and

and you are being squeezed out

and this is the thing

which I'm constantly trying to think about

how do we communicate

but yeah I was I was keen to have you on talk

to show a little bit that this is not

sometimes people have people ask me

you know how can we do it in the UK alone

and what I always say is, why do it in the UK alone?

If you look at the time when inequality was reduced

after World War 2 it was a big international effort

so I was keen to have you on to show

there are people fighting this fight in other countries

and to be clear we'll get on to this next

you have been supporting wealth taxes

you know I want to have Gabriel Zukman

and Thomas Piketty on, two

of the French economists who've been pushing it

I was over in Norway

talking to Norwegian political parties

there are people all over doing this

but that brings us to the next question

if there are so many people in so many countries

fighting for wealth taxes

and you know, now in the UK

we see the polling

it's overwhelmingly popular with the public

what is stopping us from getting these?

Because you know

you're a politician

you've been in there for a number of years

I'm sure you'll be seeing similar things

in your country

why is it that even centre left political parties

and you can speak

it's also called the Labour Party in New Zealand right?

You can speak for what they've been doing

where is that resistance from

even these traditional centre left coming from and

what do we do and how do we overcome it?

So I think there's a few different things at play

one is very much vested interests

so there are a lot of very wealthy people

who will do absolutely everything that they can

to fan the flames of fear

and to point to division and distraction

and to create division and distraction

amongst regular people so that

you know here

for example it's migrants and our country

I mean definitely

the two more radical right wing parties

are currently falling over themselves

to take credit for a New Zealand values test

that they want to impose on migrants

as well but all of that aside

these very wealthy people own largely

but also influence hugely our media landscape

then I think you know

part and parcel of the unfortunate consequences of this

inequality

is not only that regular people are poorer and poorer

but also that they have less and less time

to engage with the political arena

this has happened simultaneously too

over the last 40 years

very intentional shredding of collective action

of union movements you know

people are living more precarious lives

so the gig economy for example

means that you're less likely to know your coworker

You’re less likely to know your neighbour

because you're less likely to be able to stay in your house

for a long period of time

what that means is that when we see these problems

impacting our day to day lives

we see them as problems with us

not as systemic problems necessarily

so I think

it's also part and parcel of how people perceive

and understand the world. Then it's the media landscape

and the messages that we're getting

about what's actually possible

and feasible. People are intentionally

confused by, you know, again

all of these distractions and all of this division

and that then also bleeds into the vested interests

which influence our politics.

So yeah I think that it really boils down

to put, to flip that on its head

what the solution looks like

is people understanding that

you know, these solutions are not gonna come from vested

interests very clearly

and it's gonna require an understanding that

politics is not as complicated as it's made out

in the same way that

economics is not as complicated as it's made out

you know, I've been in politics now

for the better part of 10 years

politics very simply is just about power

it's about resources

and it's about who gets to make decisions

that saturate and shape our daily lives, right?

That is politics.

Things end up getting complicated

when we throw in all this partisanship

and these political parties

or whatever else

but I think some very clever people

likes of yourself have articulated

you know it is no longer this kind of simplistic

left or right wing thing

it very much is the 1% versus the 99%

and as you've also said before

you know

there's very wealthy people who are looking to protect

their lot or what they perceive is their lot

which I would actually argue

has come at the expense of everybody else

who's working and slogging their guts out.

They are going to

do everything to have regular people believe

that they are not worthy

or they do not deserve a fairer society

and I think this just kind of leads us to the conclusion

why the hell would you let the people

who are currently fleecing you

and laughing their way to the bank

tell you what is possible in politics

It’s cooked

Yeah, I have often used the term in the past

the fire engines are not coming.

What I mean when I say that is

people, definitely people in this country

especially more working class people

have kind of had it drilled into them like

you know, it's not your place to deal with that

like that's the job of the politicians

Yeah, and that also

is I think another big problem, is

you've probably heard the adage,

in relationships

that you get the love that you think that you deserve

so a lot of people

stay in a lot of really shitty relationships right?

I think the same goes

we get the politics that we think that we deserve

and after 40 odd years of politicians

promising one thing and then selling regular

hard working people down the river with

you know, everything that they actually do in reality

you know, this

the implications of that are that

people don't believe that politics

is capable of changing or transforming their lives

so you end up with this really negative feedback loop

whereby people don't get the outcomes that they want

from engaging in politics

so why would they engage?

That lack of engagement results in

a lack of representation on the things that they want

which then results in less action

less engagement

less representation and so on and so forth.

So I've got this kind of strategy right

which I've been calling the Murdoch strategy

which is

you know, what does Rupert Murdoch do?

You don't mind me speaking about Rupert Murdoch?

No go hard.

He has a lot of control over the media

but I think that's slipping a little bit

because of the move towards social media

For those who don't know

this is the guy that owns like tons of like news channels

radio stations, newspapers

controls what the public think

and then because of that he can kind of

decide whether a

political party wins or loses an election

and for that reason

the political parties kind of have to do what he says

right? And then I've seen this move towards social media

which I think has opened a lot of space

because a lot of the traditional

power players in politics

the political parties, the big media stations

including the ones owned by Rupert Murdoch have

not been quick enough to move into that space

and then that's meant that there's all of this kind of

power to take

in terms of influencing what the public believe

what the public understand on social media

and if we move in and take that

then we can educate the public and then

we can be trusted by the public

and then we can do what Murdoch has always done

which is go and have a meeting

with the political leaders

before the elections and say, ‘well

what are you gonna offer me?’ basically

But the stumbling block that I've come to

obviously

I'm not as big or as influential as Rupert Murdoch

but this channel is by the standards of like politics

social media it's massive now right?

And we have a Labour Party

which is polling terribly badly

they look like they're gonna lose

really badly in the next election

This channel is very popular

and very influential with the British public

and yet

this phenomenally unpopular Labour Party are extremely

stubbornly resistant to listening to us

so as somebody who's been within politics

and I guess I know

you've been supportive of wealth taxes for a long time

maybe you've had similar experiences yourself

have you got any advice for

like what can we do

what should we do? Should we change our strategy

in trying to influence Labour

should we forget about Labour

and just go straight for the public

have you got any advice about what we should do?

Oh mate

if I had advice to give you

we would have sorted out all our problems right?

But I think that this is

kind of exposing the fact that

I've been here now for a few

days and I've been meeting with some phenomenal people

likes of yourself and you know

some of your local politicians and economists and

you know I'm gonna meet with some more

the likes of Piketty and Zucman

and what I am learning

is that nobody has solved this problem

there is no clear answer

which leads me to the conclusion

that we have to get our bloody hands dirty

you know, I am part of so many conversations

with so many smart people

who paralyze themselves by falling over

needing to be right or having all of the perfect plans

before we just start moving on it

and I guess in the most simplistic way

there's kind of two broad spheres

that we can bring about change in

and they're very interconnected

the boundaries between them are really porous and open

and that's kind of

structure, so the structures of society are legislation

regulation, funding

taxation systems, the incentives, subsidies

trade agreements, treaties

procurement processes, contracts

etcetera. That's like the blueprint or the coat hooks

or the social contract

as it's written down in black and white

but that stuff gets its legitimacy from

and can be delegitimised by culture

and this is really important

cause culture here

I'm defining from a design thinking perspective

which is about a shared set of values

and when you understand our culture

as a shared set of values

you can come to understand

how we create this thing called society

which we all live in

with people from all of these different backgrounds

who come together to prioritize

whether it be implicitly not talking about it

or explicitly

intentionally working through that democratically

hopefully what those values actually are

so that's kind of the glue that binds society together

right? And if you think about the different leverage points

for changing culture, so therefore

creating the environment conducive to structural change

to changing politics, to changing our laws

to changing our tax system

it's things like media

which as you've just talked about

is being massively influenced

or undercut now by the social media landscape

it's things like education

which is really important

but it takes a really bloody long time

especially

if you do that through the compulsory education system

but more fundamentally it's about community building

I think

and this is where we have to be honest with ourselves

about the really hard graft

that is obviously

the likes of petition and protest

but more than that, conversation

and regular people feeling confident

and capable enough to talk to each other

about what these problems are.

Understand that they are shared problems

they're not our own individual problems

they're systemic problems

and then work together

organising to try and change that.

So I guess you know

that's a roundabout way of providing the context

to answer your question which is that

if we are to get the critical mass necessary

to make this change politically

then we need more regular

people who know that they are just as bloody entitled

to have an opinion on something

to approach their politician

and to make a political impact

as the Rupert Murdochs of this world.

Yeah this is pretty much in line with

with what I've been saying

which is I think that

I think that there's a there's a lack of compelling

cohesive popular political messages at the moment

I think we've moved into a space of kind of broad

lack of faith of politicians

but I think that provides a lot of opportunity for like,

individuals acting as amplifiers of a message

so like, the popularity of this channel

you know, we've never spent a penny on advertising

it's word of mouth right?

And I keep saying, you know

if everybody convinces one person

then you get everybody and

I do think there's huge space to grow that

through conversations. But on that topic

I can't talk to you today

without bringing up the subject of rising anti

immigrant sentiment

the increased popularity of the far right

There was a huge rally here this weekend

this weekend just gone, by the far right here in London

I think they have really in a sense

done a good job of spreading a message

through social media totally through people

through communities

and they tapped into real anger

Yeah, and when you talk about conversation

I worry a little bit

we're having... it's

making conversations more difficult

because

I feel that this country is moving a little bit more

towards the

kind of

very divided society that you see more so in the US

where you're either on one side or the other side

and people can't really talk

What's the situation like in New Zealand

do you have a rising far right

is it similar, are similar things happening

and what can we do about it?

I mean I don't think

that would be remiss of me to say that

we've got

the most right wing government that we've had

in a generation and they are very intentionally

shredding the social safety net

so they put a hiring freeze in our healthcare system

which is you know

resulting in

people waiting hours and hours in emergency departments

our education system is

falling apart at the seams

and again none of this is for lack of the amazing

people in those systems really trying

but they're burning out

and many of them are then looking offshore

for better opportunities

better quality of life for them and their family

for lower cost of living

and all of those kinds of things

and this is also why I think

it's important that we're talking

and understanding that this is a global phenomenon

right?

So while people might move to try and escape these issues

domestically they'll chase them because

you know, the billionaires are coming and

you know Peter Thiel

has citizenship in my country

and is building a bunker

it’s maddening. So I guess again

this is where we need to understand that

in terms of the political analysis

and this polarisation, tepid centrism

that is, you know

centre left parties have been bumbling along

and not meaningfully

addressing the material conditions

of regular working people

for the last 40 years. People are not stupid

they understand

that their day to day lives are deteriorating

that things are getting harder

that they are working longer

and they are angry about that

and they need somewhere to put that anger

and the kind of major proposition from

supposedly left wing parties

or centre left wing parties over the last 40 years

and particularly the last 10 or so years

has effectively been tokenism

has been going well

we're gonna put one person from a structurally

marginalized community into a position of power

not change the power structures

not deal with any of the fundamental issues in society

but we're just gonna

kind of put a gloss on hyper capitalism

and this deeply entrenched inequality

and you know

I think that in turn has meant that

there is a space for the far right to kind of enter

and go, OK

well it's that person who's been placed into that

supposed position of power

this like historically structurally marginalized person

well they're the problem

you know

it's the gays or the migrants or whatever

and this is where I think

to kind of come back down to earth

and to think about how we do

tangibly and realistically

that organizing

that I was alluding to in those conversations

you know, I kinda come back to this really basic point

one of the first things I wanted to do

when I became co leader of the greens

in Aotearoa was to go and talk to the coal miners

because so frequently, obviously

green movements are pitched against working people

particularly working class people in

you know, these industrial areas

so I don't have beef with coal miners

in fact I want them to live good lives

but we obviously need to decarbonize our economy

if we're gonna have a future and a livable planet

so went down to the West coast of the South Island and

I love

nothing more than a challenge of talking to people

who think that they'll hate me

and you know

after talking through some of those initial assumptions

about who I was and what I was there to do

we kind of

then immediately get down to the brass tacks of it

and it's crazy. At the end of the day

all these guys wanted was a decent income

to be able to stay in their community

and feel a sense of pride in what they do

Those are things we can agree on

that is the broadest base unifying thing

that brings together people in my country

people in your country regular people across the world

it's the foundations of Maslow's hierarchy of needs

that is where we will find our solidarity

that is the stuff that we can agree on

so I think that you know

when it comes to

kind of trying to reach across the aisle

and talk to these people

who are in these incredibly angry spaces

and are being co opted

and manipulated by the far right

obviously that's not a role for

particularly

those who are subjected to all of that hatred

but I do think

those of us who have a familiar or family connection

if we can just kind of spend the time and ask people

why they think the way that they do

and how they kind of came to those conclusions

you know people will come to unpack

and when they are talking about

why they think the way that they do

they will start to acknowledge themselves

if they're genuinely being listened to

that maybe there are some gaps in their logic.

I think I think often there's less

between

some of the people who are supporting what we do

who want a wealth tax

and some of the people going on these marches

then you might think and I've seen some guys

there's a guy

there's a youtuber here called Jimmy the giant

I like and I think it was on

he tweeted it, but I think it was on Politics Joe

they went and they spoke to some of these guys

a lot of these guys want wealth taxes

and I think

the situation we have here is

you know everybody hates the Conservatives

it's understandable people are starting to hate Labour

and that's understandable as well

and then Reform our sort of new right

far right party, they

kind of win by being the only voice left in the room

because the left hasn't really been able to

establish a presence in social media

which is where these people are

or in the mainstream media

and I actually think there's a massive space

for a fourth voice

which doesn't have to be on the left, that

that really does anything

that centers living standards, economics

inequality, taxation

which is what I'm trying to be

it sounds like you're trying to do a similar thing here

I should ask you why you're here

you're obviously co leader of the New Zealand Greens

we’ve got a new leader of our British Greens

and he's Zack Polanski for those who don't know

He's great. He seems to be looking to do a similar thing

which is focus a lot on the economy

focus on inequality, be there on social media

be loud, make a voice

any opinions on him?

Oh yeah

no Zack and I met a few days ago and he's awesome

I think that he has an incredible opportunity to yeah

work with people, to have them realise

that all of these problems are so deeply interconnected

right? I mean

it's really funny because our name is Green

and our colour is green

of course we care about the environment

we care about saving the bats and our native species

and all of those other things

but we also care about all life on earth

you know, and it's really

bloody hard to get people to care about the end of the planet

or the end of life on earth as we know it

if they can't put food on the table

for the end of the week. So

any program that is focused on centering

kind of our ecological needs

or our planetary limits needs to bear in mind that

in order to change public policy

to get to that place we need to ensure that everybody

has their basic needs met

so I think it really is that simple

it's about understanding

the same system that is exploiting our planet

is exploiting and exhausting people

and that's where we kind of

come back down to this really basic proposition that

what the hell are we all working so hard for

if not

to have a society that caters to our basic needs

I mean I hope it works

I hope it works

I sometimes feel that I'm sort of

the only guy pushing progressive voice on social media

and I know I'm not

I know there's lots of other people doing it

but I look at what Zack's doing

focusing on inequality, focusing on taxation

focusing on social media

and I hope it works cause

then I could go on holiday and feel like someone else

is doing it

He's got a really clear,

he's got a really clear message

and I mean this is kind of always my call to action

to anybody who, you know

is maybe sitting there at home and going

she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about

well get involved!

Then get your hands dirty

I will take critique from anybody

who is willing to bloody try

You know if enough of us try

then we'll win, I always say that

but let's not, let's not fight in the background right

let's bloody do it

I see too many circular firing squads

but I know you gotta go soon

before you go

I get criticized a lot for being quite pessimistic

because I am quite pessimistic

and given you know

the mood in this country at the moment

is quite pessimistic

I try my best to finish on messages of hope

so I would like to ask you before we finish

do you feel hopeful for the future

is there something you feel hopeful about

what gives you hope?

I feel incredibly hopeful about the future

I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I don't

you know I travel around my country

and obviously been on the other side of the planet

for the first time in several years

And whenever I feel a sense of pessimism or despondency

or whatever you wanna characterize it as

just look for the helpers

and you will find abundant people

who are doing their best day in and day out

in ways big and small to make the world a better place

and if we start connecting the dots

between all of those actions

and those practices of people living their values

and doing the right thing

and we scale that up

then we've kind of changed the world overnight

you know, so yeah

I feel an incredible sense of hope

and I think that it's about people realizing

and this is my kind of classic

go to

that inspiration

is not a reason to put somebody on a pedestal

and go

that person's gonna solve all of the world's problems

clearly they're not you know

if you look at

all of the amazing things that human beings

have been able to achieve

in the arc of history, civil rights

gay rights, women's rights

whatever, it has always been

regular people working together at scale

to change our politics up against some of the most

heinous and difficult barriers

that you can possibly conceptualize

and imagine. So inspiration is a mirror

it is you seeing in somebody else

actually something that you admire about yourself

and that is an invitation to participate

and to be part of something bigger

and the kind of co benefit

or the other really awesome thing about that is

our mental health will be so much better for it.

I hope so, I hope so

I think we can make it better

I think we can and I think that we have to

and I think that in the process of trying

we need to have some fucking fun

I'll try my best, that's never been a specialty of mine

but thank you very much

first ever politician on the channel

thanks for coming all the way over and yeah

good luck

nice to meet you, Chlöe Swarbrick. You too mate