Welcome back to the world transformed we are  socialist Think Tank and we are going to be  

talking today about the cost of living crisis this  is the big one this is something that I think on  

the left we really need to address because the  mainstream media narrative about what's causing  

the cost of living crisis and the solutions to  the cost of living crisis simply aren't being  

explained very well at all they're confusing  people to be honest they make literally no  

sense because in my view they're trying to cover  something up they're trying to tell us a story  

that's different from what reality is so today  we're going to explore the reality of the cost  

of living crisis I'll introduce myself I'm Paul  Daley I'm a presenter at socialist Think Tank  

and now I'm going to pass you to my amazing guests  I'm going to start off with Sarah from the biggest  

Union Sarah would you like to say something  about yourself tell us who you are yes I'm um

around it time and understand

so like for me that the important thing is  you've you've done the job where you're with  

your workplace representative were you like a  shop steward in the union there I think that's  

so important for a general secretary to have  that background in really dealing with the  

day-to-day stuff so you will really understand  how people are living their lives and also I  

suppose having worked in a shop you get to  see like all the different aspects of society  

and people coming through the doors and that  kind of thing is that a fair assumption yeah  

um and also we've got Gary Gary can you tell us  a little bit about yourself because we're very  

excited to have you on also uh yeah my name's Gary  Stevenson uh I'm an economist mainly inequality uh  

the big thing for me is my back because I was I  was a Trader I worked as a Trader after the 2008  

crisis I worked for Citibank and I became City  bank's most profitable Trader in the world by  

betting that because you wouldn't fix inequality  that crisis would last for a very long time and  

have very bad impact on our economy so um I did  that for a few years I bet that the economy would  

never recover and I made a lot of money doing  it and after a couple years you start to think  

maybe I should try and stop this from happening  so uh I quit that job which the bank wasn't too  

happy about I went and did a degree in economics  at Oxford and uh that was though to push guys in  

capes in working in castles and I think this is  probably not where change is going to come from  

so I quit that and I started to sort of try and  speak publicly so now I've got a YouTube called  

Gary's economics where I try and basically  explain to people how serious inequality  

Is wealth inequality the effect it has on the  economy the effect it has on ordinary families  

the big aim of the YouTube is basically to make a  space where we talk about economics in a way that  

is accessible and easy for just ordinary people  to understand um and it's super important now  

because coven has seen the biggest and fastest  ever increase in inequality in the country  

um obviously the budget yesterday will see  another massive increase inequality and um  

yeah it's really important that people understand  how that's going to affect themselves people get a  

chance to talk about it yeah definitely and from  your point of view do you think like the economy  

is deliberately cloudy you know so they'll they'll  use words that ordinary people might zone out on  

and you know they might not really engage with  economics and think Ah that's actually above me  

do you think that's a deliberate thing or do you  think that's something that's happened by accident  

you mentioned like the kind of people at Oxford  and capes yeah I think I think there's a problem  

in my opinion with the culture of economics in  general which is that it's become the norm to  

use these this complicated phrases complicated  words like acronyms people don't understand  

um I think a big problem we have with economics is  that there's basically two odds of Economics which  

is this sort of public phase and economics like  media journalism Central Banking or the bank of  

England and then there's the financial markets if  you go in the financial markets everybody's just  

you have to be right all the time and you get  rewarded very aggressively if you're right but  

then in this public world the incentives are such  the sort of speak a good game and sort of sound  

smart and look smart so if you ask me you know  you get these people on the news talking about  

economics the reality is they are not trying to  be right they're not rewarded for being right you  

know at the beginning of the financial crisis  I put out articles in open democracy videos  

of my YouTube saying after after code we're  going to see a massive cost of living crisis  

and that was right at the same time you know Larry  Elliot had economics editor of the Guardian so  

we're going to see a house price collapse you know  three years later where's the punishment for that  

so ultimately these guys in the media they're not  trying to be right they're not rewarded for being  

right and I think that's a big problem that's why  you get basically I had analysis unfortunately  

that's uh yeah that's really Rings true I think I  think a lot of people at all will be singing you  

know that that's exactly their experience of it  you know we're told all these things like as if  

as if there's some like tremendous all cni that  will understand the the economics of the country  

at the same time they're getting it wrong every  single time guaranteed to get it wrong every  

single time so I'm going to firstly let's come  to Sarah because we'll be just there sorting out  

a couple of issues there with their Gary's mate  um Sarah the cost of living crisis what are you  

seeing for your members so let's talk about like  what is the reality on the ground because I have  

a fear that we haven't seen the worst of it but  we are starting to see some real negative effects  

on people and how they live their lives so what  are you seeing what are you getting reported to  

you through your membership so if I take you  back to last year so before we'd even kind of  

fully got into this cost of living crisis we  surveyed our members around their access to  

food through the pandemic so our members in the  main worked throughout the whole of the pandemic  

you know producing Foods selling food when we  got the results back from the survey 40 of them  

um were eating enough because they didn't have  enough food to eat one in five actually ran out  

of food between paydays 35 were eating less so  the kids could have enough to eat um we've got  

seven and a half percent that had become fully  reliant on food banks and one in five were using  

friends and family to support them to provide  them food so they could feed themselves and  

the families that was before you know the cost of  petrol rocket aired the the energy prices went up  

if we run that now you know I know that those  figures would be double what they were back then  

and we'd have more respondents and it it's just  catastrophic we've got members that are telling  

us that they're doing extra shifts at McDonald's  just so they can have a free meal whilst they're  

there because otherwise there wouldn't be eating  at all we've got members that you know have  

anonymously told us that they're actually pinching  food from work so that they can can go on and try  

and create something that's now that's we're  still in kind of the my dad never used to let  

us put the eating on until the end of October  it was quite tight being a Yorkshire man but  

people haven't had to put their eating on  after because they've been in such warm weather  

Our concern is when we get to a point where people  are thinking right I need to rank up the heating  

now the bills are going to fire up what's going to  happen we know there are millions of children in  

poverty that have got working parents and the  reality for many of our members is they don't  

know they're going to afford to get to work to do  work to then pay the bills that they need to pay  

um and it's heartbreaking because these are  people like I say that we're working through the  

pandemic celebrated as key workers but aren't  paid enough to be able to feed themselves in  

the families yeah we had a we had a big thing  like um our local MP um in Sedgefield was uh  

you know he was he was saying about how much he  supported key workers and he was out clapping on  

his doorstep and making a big deal of it but at  the same time he was bought through legislation  

that meant that people who were earned under a  certain amount of money were considered to be law  

skilled workers well which is a is a key workers  or is it law skilled you know like these things  

a lot of the time it doesn't mean low skilled  at all they defined it by low pay I think all  

jobs out there have an element of skill about them  you know you can think about any job that's going  

I've done all sorts of different jobs I've been a  cleaner at one point in my life I'll tell you what  

I didn't have the skills necessary for that it was  really really hard I was not very good at it but  

um I tried my best and I would love to see some  of these MPS like make 65 Sandwiches an hour at  

Greg's I'll put cherries on the top of a Bakewell  tart they just wouldn't be able to do it that's  

deemed as a law skilled job but it isn't otherwise  everybody would be able to do it absolutely  

absolutely agree um and along with this so all  those things that you've heard there Gary you know  

we've been told that this is because of what's  going on in Ukraine and this is because Global gas  

prices have gone up and things like that I think  people are ready now because people understand  

that that's a lie people understand that this was  happening before any conflict in Ukraine this was  

happening anyway and I think people are ready for  the truth on this one now you said you predicted  

this was going to happen so yeah firstly how did  you predict it and what do you think the cause  

is of this like does that fit in with what you  predicted like I want to get the most important  

thing like out straight out of the door because  this crisis is often spoken about in the media  

like it's caused entirely by the war in Ukraine  um basically if it's called entirely by external  

events almost like a natural disaster um if it  was a natural disaster everybody would be taking  

some sort of pain the last two years have seen the  biggest and fastest ever increase in millionaire  

and billionaire wealth in their history of this  country that's just a cold fact if you look at the  

just the top 250 richest individuals in the  country they made 106 billion pounds increase  

in their wealth in the first one year of Kobe so  the entire cost of the energy package is less than  

100 billion pounds so we could pay for that if we  just tax the top 250 people enough to make them  

as rich as they were before covert happened if  you broaden that if you were to tax the entire  

wealthy class enough to make them as rich as they  were before covert started you could give every  

single adult in the entire country 13 000 pounds  and this crisis would be over at the drop of a  

head this is what drives me insane about what's  Happening Here politicians sit on the sofas of  

BBC breakfast and they talk about it like it's  oh it's so terrible what's happened right if  

you were to tax the rich enough to make them as  rich as they were three years ago you could give  

every adult in the country 13 000 pounds so the  people watching what could you do with 13 000  

this is not even every household every adult  this what drives me so crazy about this crisis  

in unnecessary is does not need to happen this  is not it's not a natural disaster this is a  

crisis of inequality listen if you if you have a  disaster like covid and in that disaster you allow  

the biggest and fastest ever increasing inequality  to happen in your country you cannot be surprised  

when it's immediately followed by the biggest  and fastest ever decrease in living standards for  

ordinary families because that is what inequality  means you have made the rich richer and you have  

made ordinary families significantly poor imagine  if the government came out and taxed every single  

adult in the country 12 000 pounds and gave it  to the rich people would be up in arms but that  

is what has happened and the reason I was able to  predict this is because at the very beginning of  

covid you could see this happening you knew  straight away that things like furlough and  

I'm not against furlough in any way you could see  straight away it was unbelievably expensive so you  

have to ask two questions where's the money coming  from and where's it ending up nobody asked that  

nobody asked that okay if the money's not coming  from the rich then it's coming from the taxpayer  

okay so come and where's the money ending up okay  if you did not end up twelve thousand pound richer  

somebody has your money and you could see from  the beginning of covert because during covid  

ordinary families expenses did not decrease  significantly most ordinary families 70 80 90 of  

their expensive expenses rent mortgage food bills  and those expenses did not disappear but if you  

look at very rich families most of their spending  is luxury expensive holidays expensive restaurants  

expensive bars going to the theater right all of  that stuff stops so during covid the spending of  

very rich families collapse at 70 80 but a lot  of that spending pays the bills of all the no  

families who work in those sectors so what you see  during covert is the rich stop spending and all  

the new families stop receiving their incomes okay  so the government steps in and prints the money  

gives it to ordinary families ordinary families  use it to pay their bills the owners of the assets  

are the rich and they're not spending so in the  end 600 billion pounds from the government to the  

rich that was predictable from the start of covet  so if you're that's 12 000 pounds per adult if  

that all goes to top 10 you're talking about every  single adult and the top 10 making a hundred two  

hundred grand pure cash so I'm asking you imagine  the government gave 100 200 Grand to every rich  

person in the country of course you're going to  see inflationary crisis how much money is 100 200  

grand for every single rich person in the country  this was so predictable in advance so painfully  

predictable if the government is going to give out  600 billion pounds somebody has to do the analysis  

of where does that money end up who benefits who  gets richer and nobody did it nobody the media  

did it nobody in the labor party did it nobody the  bank of England did it nobody did it it's criminal  

and then after that that enormous increase  amount of the rich you could you could tax  

it back and you could solve this crisis what do  they do they slash taxes on rich people it's it's  

I cannot I cannot believe what's happening and  and you know as somebody who has personally made  

millions of pounds betting that if you smash an  equality through the roof you destroy the economy  

and destroy a living standards for ordinary  people I know I'm not the person who's going to  

get hurt by this but I can I know what's going  to happen down the line and it's going to be  

you know I run a YouTube channel talking about  this stuff and when I saw happened yesterday I  

was thinking is it even right for me to make a  video about this because maybe it's better that  

people don't know because I cannot describe to you  how bad this is gonna you know I hear you talking  

about this and and I wish I could tell you that  that was temporary and it's going to get better  

but if you look at the policies this is going to  get significantly worse and it's this is me I'm  

not you know I'm I'm a wealthy person I'm not the  one who's going to get hurt by this and it's it's  

difficult for me to think about what's happening  so it's it's yeah it was predictable because you  

could see from the beginning of Kobe we were  going to see a massive increase in inequality  

and I think people need to understand given a ton  of money to rich people hurts you as an ordinary  

family because it makes them it makes you poor  relative to them they get more resources you  

get less resources that's what we're seeing  and it's so important people understand that  

because if people don't understand that then the  government can do what they do and what we saw  

yesterday and it's heartbreaking and it hurts  me to hear these stories yes I that's a pretty  

bleak picture to be honest that you've you've just  painted there um it's for me the economy is broken  

if that money is going straight to rich people  so they pump the money in at the bottom if the  

economy is pumping that wealth straight to the  Top This trickle up system's not even trickled  

up it's Rush your business it's like it's getting  pumped up absolutely exorbitant rate all the time  

that's a broken economy and broken economies  need to be fixed with taxes you know you need to  

be taxing money out from the wealthy people from  the wealthiest to give it to everyone else because  

the economy is broken personally I'd rather  see that wealth circulated within a community  

but the economy's still broken because we've got  so many massive corporations small businesses  

going by the wayside like in my area there are  so many small businesses folding at the moment  

and people say like you know the conservatives  are the party of business but they're not the  

part of your small business there's a party  of massive massive companies and massive CEOs  

you'll know a thing or two about CEOs won't  you Sarah how are the CEOs doing because I  

know like I'm going to come under that weird weird  economic car crash that was the budget yesterday  

um I'm going to come onto that shortly but like  you know shall we just check are the CEOs okay  

in the industry do you think they're going to be  okay after all this yeah because they must have  

been from that budget yesterday they must be  the ones in bother but like are they all right  

I'd imagine so yeah I would imagine so although  you know if we could get some of our members and  

and communities standing up and demanding better  you know um maybe they won't be you know I think  

we should have a bit of a France element where  people are out on the streets you know and the  

the conscious stops and I know we're probably  a long way from that but I'm kind of wondering  

what it's going to take for people to do that you  know people talk about a general stripe I think we  

need more than that though we need people out on  the streets saying we're not happy and we're not  

having any more we want a new government because  nobody wants this trust now you're the person to  

talk to you about this because I know the Bakers  Union have um kind of pushed back quite a bit on  

this and we've seen a few victories and you  have organized now one of the things that's  

very very difficult I think to organize amongst  Working Class People and amongst people who don't  

have a lot of wealth is if they're going to take  action they've got to sacrifice a day's pay and a  

day's pay could be the difference between them  eaten or not eaten and that is a huge thing if  

you're going to withdraw your labor like remember  when the conservative party all went on strike  

over Boris Johnson eventually when they realized  the writing was on the wall and they couldn't be  

associated with these awful Behavior anymore  and they tried to Rebrand themselves again  

they were able to go on strike they were able to  withdraw their labor from him because there was  

no consequence they were still getting their MP  salary and things like that it's so easy to do it  

if you don't have anything to risk and we've got  like I can't you I can't like go uh through this  

without mentioning we've got Heather Woods sitting  over there Legend uh legend of the minor strikes  

who kept people going during the minor strikes  in the 1980s uh which is absolutely brilliant  

to see so you know how do you get people to take  those risks how do you support them in doing that  

that must be a massive challenge for you in the  Bakers Union it is I mean we're quite a small  

Union in comparison to some of the the larger  unions out there um but I think nobody chooses  

to take strike action lightly you're right it's  a it's a lost day's worth of pay but I think it's  

you can see with the the rising number of people  that are choosing to take strike action just how  

pissed off people are I wasn't sure whether  I could swear then oh you can swear start for  

a second and you can just see how pissed off  people are and how how they're just angry that  

they're the people that have kept us going yet  the bosses that have stopped at home been safe  

through a global pandemic or getting richer and  and they're still struggling to make ends meet  

um and I suppose it comes to a Tipping  Point doesn't it you carry on as you are  

struggling or you lose a day's pay and maybe  get something better at the end of it or you  

you lose multiple days pay and get something  better and I think as trade unions we all try  

and support our members you know we make sure  there's food on the picket lines we're not all  

in positions where we can support our members  financially but we do everything that we can to  

make sure that that picket line they're not you  know they're not being stabbed back into work  

um and I think we're going to see more of that in  the coming months more workers are going to come  

together you know but we're only six million  people and I say that we're only six million  

people there are 18 million workers in the UK  that are in trade unions that are organizing their  

workplaces and if I can I'll just do a little plug  because we're launching organized now today um at  

3 15 and and that is designed to support these 18  million people that have got no idea what a trade  

Union is no idea where to start organizing their  workplace make that first step because nobody else  

is going to do it for us the Tories are out  they're not bothered they just want to make  

the rich friends richer I can say this is a as a  general secretary of a disaffiliate a trade Union  

but the labor party and Leadership aren't going to  do anything for us either workers and communities  

are going to have to come together you're going  to have to stand together I'm going to have to  

organize and demand better because that's the  only way that we're going to make change oh okay  

um now I'm going to move on to that little budget  yesterday though it wasn't it was a mini budget  

or something like that um I know that because  he wasn't allowed to get drunk while he did it  

apparently because it wasn't a proper budget but  you're allowed to get drunk if you are doing a  

budget one of these wonderful quirks we have in  our ridiculous parliamentary system at times so  

um that came in yesterday now that was strayed  out of trickle down they aren't pretending anymore  

one of the things that I would have loved to  have seen in the mainstream media is a comment  

read that austerity was a lie so we've been  told for years and years that deficits are at  

these awful things and you can never ever run a  deficit and you've got appeared back which is I  

think economic nonsense because without deficits  then you don't have any money at all you know  

like government government spending is public  sector wealth but it's where that money ends  

up that's important they have made a conscious  Choice haven't they say right we are going to  

put money into the pockets of the richest  people they're the ones who are struggling  

whether or not they believe that that  wealth will genuinely trickle down

that has proved that austerity was a lie  austerity was done for no reason it was  

something that was done to us to break down  working-class people to keep people in the  

place and to make people's lives worse  to reduce the state to reduce Services  

because they don't believe in services for  people is that a fair analysis or you know  

have I have I entirely got it wrong because  what I saw was like tax cuts for rich people  

um there were a few things in there like I would  have reversed the National Insurance rise to be  

honest because that does affect people badly  although wealthier people benefited more from  

from the reduction in that rise anyway like have  a have I got that wrong because I'm talking to an  

economist about economics here so I'm starting I'm  starting to think maybe I better shut up so what  

do you think Gary first one I encourage people to  talk about economics as much as they can because I  

hate this space where ordinary people feel like  they're not allowed to speak about it because  

ultimately the isolated economics at Oxford right  it's a bunch of rich people there talking about  

things that are going to affect your lives so  let me know your opinions because ultimately  

it's ordinary people who are on the front line of  this and who get hurt um for me what it shows is  

the conservative party kind of pretended to be  ideological about austerity but if you actually  

look at their behaviors but they appear to be  ideological about is increasing inequality because  

they were anti-austerity uh sorry they were  anti-deficit when a deficit meant a welfare state  

well-funded education system a welfare NHS well  funded local councils then they were anti-deficits  

when deficits meant money to communities the  people the services that were anti-deficit  

but when a deficit means tax cuts for the rich  tax cuts for Bankers then suddenly they're Pro  

deficitly so I think and if you if you look at  what's happened to inequality in the last 15 20  

years you know the conservative party happy to  move this way and that but they are consistently  

massively increasing inequality and you know I  would encourage the labor party and people on the  

left to come back and fight that by having a more  an understanding of the importance of wealth and  

wealth distribution and who has it because whilst  we argue about whether a deficit is acceptable or  

not we're losing our houses we're losing our  NHS we're losing our assets you know you know  

I'm getting older now but people of my generation  and younger who can afford a house now who could  

have I told you the people who can afford that  because look interest rates were not half percent

or some people don't need a mortgage because  they've got cash I've already told you the  

average rich person accumulated 100 to 200  Grand cash in the last three years so now  

we're in a situation where if you've got cash  which a lot of rich people do you can buy a  

house if you're from an ordinary family  you want to buy a house with a mortgage  

from your work you can't so I think we need to  we need to wake up and realize this wealthiest  

important assets are important and we're  losing it and and they are getting it so  

you know if we had that awareness then in the last  three years we would have been saying oh my God  

how much is the wealth of the rich increasing in  the last three years how is that going to affect  

us ultimately if the government gives cash to  rich people like it has been in the last three  

years and now it's going to do again you know  cash is not like resources it's not like real  

assets cash is what we use to distribute who gets  resources so the big problem here is when they  

cut taxes ordinary families receive a small cut  in their taxes so maybe you're getting an extra  

20 30 pounds a week and you're like happy days  I'm getting extra 30 pounds a week whereas the  

rich guy down the road who's getting an extra  500 pounds a week you think you're richer But  

ultimately money is how we distribute resources  so if you get a tiny bit of cash and the rich get  

loads of cash you have more money but you will  get less resources less housing less food less  

assets so don't allow yourself to be blinded by  a government which is happy to give you pennies  

while it's giving the rich pounds because that  will give you more money and less resources  

and nothing could make that clearer than what's  happened in the last three years the government  

gets a lot of money up right and you know the  average amount accumulated was 12 000 pounds right  

so an ordinary family you know that's not rich  Mark I've got three four thousand pounds three  

four three four thousand pounds is a lot of money  so you're thinking you're winning but the rich got  

200 Grand and then how and then house prices  double and the food price goes up 50 and the  

energy price doubles and you're suddenly thinking  I thought I was richer but actually I'm poorer we  

need to be smarter here we need to look who has  the wealth who has the assets and don't allow  

ourselves to be blinded by Gifts of pennies from  a government that is actually robbing Us blind

um from that I keep on thinking as well that like  once you've got money money becomes like money's  

expensive for poor people and it gives rich people  money so if once once rich people have a lot of  

cash they can invest that or whatever they call it  they will speculate do all those things and that  

money will then return more money to them if you  don't have much money um then you know your money  

is expensive to get the the less money you have  the more expensive a loan is you know the the that  

kind of thing really cause problem or you're on a  meter for your gas like I know that maybe a bigger  

issue at the moment because the direct debits have  gone absolutely um you know crazy as well yeah  

because the government has um slash taxes  rich people so much the financial markets have  

massively increased interest rates in response  because they think it's going to be inflation  

when interest rates are going to go up okay so  when the government slash taxes for rich people  

the rich get richer when interest rates go up it's  easy to think that hurts everybody but it doesn't  

when interest rates go up it hurts people who have  debts and it benefits people who have money okay  

and who has debts that's ordinary families  with mortgages and it's the government who  

has debt okay but we know that the average Rich  individual has increased their cash by 100 to 200  

000 pounds in the last few years so they are  going to make a ton of money for this so the  

government in giving money to rich people has  pushed the interest rates up which means that  

ordinary families will pay more money every single  month to rich people it's it's it's a disaster  

it's a disaster policy every single thing that's  happening is more money out of the pocket ordinary  

families ordinary workers Ordinary People and into  the pocket of the rich the super rich who I will  

add again have never increased their worth more  quickly than they have in the last three years  

yeah it's been a long enough for you because it is  um but one of there were two things that stood out  

one not necessarily cost a living crisis related  which was this new legislative bill that's going  

to make sure that an employer can put in a crap  pay offer and then trade unions have got a ballot  

it that we know that that's just an attack  on kind of the rmt and and the CWU and unite  

um because of the last few months and  and the strikes that have been happening  

um but the other thing that came out was about um  Universal Credit claimants I've got to apply for  

more and better paid jobs or they'll get penalized  I might have read that wrong but that was kind of  

the gist of what I've got I mean how disgusting  is that not only are people being pushed further  

into poverty because they've got to wait longer  to get the benefits that they need to survive  

that aren't enough anyway but they're going to  be penalized if they don't get a better paid  

job but actually most jobs these days that are  easy to get a minimum wage so they're going to  

be penalized for getting a minimum wage job that  they're going to lose out on the benefits anywhere  

but some guy that's you know earning 80 a thousand  pound a year just from being an MP has decided  

that they're not working hard enough so they need  it just that that's why I didn't watch it all  

yesterday because I would have sat here and ranted  people earning more than 100 exactly as well so  

the people that aren't going out and worrying  about how the feed in the family are you know  

they're just with the fancy yachts and the big  houses are getting even more money and the people  

that are literally scraping by I've got to do more  it just uh it was a difficult day from yesterday  

and I know I know I'm not the person who's going  to be affected by it right but are people going to  

accept this I've helped I really did they think  they're going to get away with it and you know  

I I hope people won't I hope people won't but a  friend of mine called me up and he said the same  

thing he's like well if I'm going to get 20 30  pounds a week maybe my Mick's going to be happy  

about that and this is what we need to this is  why we need to educate and let people understand

you know 12 years ago there's a pandemic  that we've just been through people have  

lost loved ones whilst they've been partying  yeah and I think for a lot of people and this  

is why I'm talking about organizing and stuff  because they don't know what to do there's no  

light at the end of the tunnel you know  things have been [ __ ] for a long time  

um and it's up to kind of us to say a lot there  is better yeah we've got to come together you've  

got to dig deeper we've got to kind of build the  trenches so to speak because driving this morning  

here and I dropped my partner off in town and  we saw on this guy on the street and he went you  

know what in the next few months we're gonna see  Mama that aren't we and and we are because you're  

right there's no end to this but we've got to do  stuff it's to me it's it's about telling stories  

and the problem is for years and years and years  we've been told a story that individualism is good  

that people deserve what they get people you know  people who work harder rewarded people who don't  

work harder the people who end up on the street  and and that is not reality like neoliberalism  

is the ideology that hates itself you know it's it  says that you know within the neoliberal ideology  

they talk about the natural rate of unemployment  don't they they need an unemployed body of people  

in order to ensure that the wages of ordinary  people are kept down so that they can say right we  

can go on in like an unemployed person will come  and get your job and yet they're hid unemployed  

people now I would argue that unemployed people  are in the public sector there appears to be an  

employee to keep keep wages down you know that's  the that's the whole point of them that's their  

ideology but they won't admit it and then they go  after unemployed people and say actually you're  

doing something wrong and people internalize that  and they believe that and everyone like they're  

looking around they're looking at their next door  neighbor or something like that saying oh do you  

think he's got a couple more quid than me or I'm  working harder than him and I deserve more rather  

than looking at the at the top of the hill at the  castle you know the metaphorical castle of like  

these people with super yachts that you know they  are the the people who are taking the wealth from  

our society taking the money taking that 12 000  pounds out of the puppets of every single person  

in the country and I think the the stories that  you've both told today I think they're incredibly  

important that they go out to a mainstream  audience how do we get them out to a mainstream  

audience because you know what today it's going to  be absolutely brilliant I'm going to be speaking  

to people who believe what I believe I'm here with  comrades today but there are people out there who  

won't be getting this message how do we get to  those how do we change those stories do you think  

Sarah I'm going to come to you because you speak  to these ordinary people all the time in your job  

we've got to talk to everybody haven't we  I said I was at South Yorkshire Festival a  

few weeks ago and I said two things one of the  things was trust will get in and it'll be worse  

than we've ever seen before she'll make that  she'll look like a lib Dem because she's got  

a purpose she's got to make up for boris's  feelings and and she's gonna wit the ground  

um and I miss running because she did um and  the second thing was that we've got to talk  

to people we've got to get back into there a bit  of talking to people anybody and everybody about  

about the realities of life not what's being  told on the right-wing media because if you're  

told something often enough for long enough you  believe it don't you and that's what we've had  

in this country the right-wing media that's  Friends of the billionaires telling us that  

you next door neighbor that don't go to work to  Shaker and the the Polish couple across the road  

are immigrants stealing me jobs and that's  what people believe and we've got to go out  

and and spread the narrative that that's not  right we're all in this together they're not  

not everybody's going to agree with us and  some conversations will be bloody difficult  

because they'll be right-wing you know they'll  they'll be forage supporters and and worse  

but there will be there there will be the most  meaningful conversations because if we can get  

them to understand then we will start to see  change but until we start going outside of our  

own Echo Chambers and talking to other people  and engaging in those conversations nothing's  

going to change because we'll just keep talking  to each other yeah what is this this space of  

individualism right I know it's used against us  but look it is becoming clearer and clearer and  

clearer that what is happening is not working for  the vast majority of individuals you know this  

is you know for a long time it was people towards  the poor end of the spectrum who are getting hurt  

that's not true anymore look what is happening  now you know if you are bang in the middle exactly  

average financial situation you are getting hit  you are getting seriously seriously hit and you  

know I always think about you know who are the  people who are supporting the conserving fight you  

know and a lot of the voters are older people you  know and a lot of older people especially property  

owning older people up to some degree protected  by their house prices going up I want to find ways  

to reach out to those people to say listen okay  I know you're protected by house price going up  

where your kids going to be what your kid's lives  going to be like what your grandkids lives going  

to be like you know what I mean I think we need  to find the fact is this is not working and and  

it's Madness and if we live in a society where  people are thinking me and my family well then  

we should win because me and my family has been  destroyed financially for 70 80 of the country  

here so let's find ways to reach those people  and communicate them and say listen this isn't  

working for me this isn't working for you maybe  this doesn't maybe we don't agree on absolutely  

everything but we should have a big majority of  the country here who should say look we can it's  

obvious it's obvious 70 80 of the country are  being driven down house ownership is collapsing  

levels of debt are rising to the roof and at the  same time the fastest ever increasing wealth of  

the super rich there is a massive opportunity  here to build a coalition based purely on people  

whose Financial lives are being smashed you know  what I mean I think we need to find ways to reach  

those people and you know I'm going to use the  opportunity to plug my YouTube channel that I did  

there is that everyone is allowed in everyone is  allowed then and all it is about explaining that  

to people look you're being hit I'm being hit and  you know the media is going to try and find ways  

to divide us old versus young men versus women  different ethnicities North versus the South okay  

and look there are everybody's problems need to  be recognized but I also need to recognize that  

we're all getting hit so we need to be able  to come together above that and look at the  

speed with which people's economic lives are being  hurt so I think there's a massive opportunity here  

if we can it's building community and building  those relationships you know speak to the people  

around you and say that we're all getting hit here  I know we don't agree on everything but this is  

serious and and you are going to see a massive  acceleration decrease in living standards so  

we take the opportunity to bring people together  and say look we really need to create some Unity  

fight back and yeah find spaces and ways to do it  brilliant and I hope people at home are clipping  

this and uh and they're going to put out little  clips of this and share that this with people  

because that's a nice way to do it as well we've  just had some great explainers here from you as  

as panelists um about what the problems are what  the solutions are is going to come next so we've  

got a few minutes left to talk about what those  Solutions are so like I guess Sarah what would  

you like to see coming in the next I don't know  from the next government from from the labor party  

at the moment what sort of offer are you seeing  because at the moment like they've been very very  

tentative about whether they'd even um oppose that  could in the 45 rate of tax they've been very Coy  

about that and I'm like I think that's a that's  an easy one for me yes of course we oppose that  

um you know and I'll go a lot further with a  lot more wealth but like you know what would  

you like to see from the next Parliament  so we we've got some clear clear demands  

um from the next Parliament we want to see  the minimum wage raise to 15 pounds an hour  

um for all workers regardless of age you know you  don't get a discount on nappies if you're a mum at  

17 because you're 17 you shouldn't have a discount  on your age when you're doing the same job  

an outright ban on Zero's contracts how can you  even begin to look at getting a mortgage or rent  

or even a bloody mobile phone on a contract if you  don't know what I was going to work from one week  

to an X we want sick pay at 100 from day one so  if you are unfortunate enough to be ill you can  

still afford to pay your bills and that's less  stress on you than just having to rely on less  

than 100 pound a week um what else and a right  to food for everyone and part of that includes  

free School meals for all children up until the  age of 18 and that might sound kind of radical  

but if you've got to go to school until you're 18  because that's what the law says they should feed  

you whilst you're there and that again would  release some disposable income because you're  

being paid 15 pounds an hour um to be able to  spend in the local economy and it would make  

a difference because it'd be normal people that  have got that money not not the rich billionaires  

um do I think it's going to happen I think I might  be thinking Pie in the Sky with the labor party  

but that's why what we would like to see and we've  seen over the last couple of years that that money  

can be spent you know and it should but it should  be spent on working people and and our communities  

are not giving billions to dodgy companies that  aren't going to do what they say they're going  

to do yeah I always say them you know give them  money to give money to someone who works in a shop  

or a builder or something like that it's going  to get spent a nurse a teacher they'll spend  

their money give it to a billionaire and ends up  in the Cayman Islands you know and that's what  

the government have just done but at least they  can't say to us if they were sitting here now  

they would have absolutely no leg to stand on for  saying how are you going to pay for that because  

they have just paid out of public money for a  huge huge increase in wealth of the wealthiest  

never again will we accept that argument that  they that you know how you're going to pay for  

this it's it's absolute nonsense Gary what do you  think what would you like to see well I was too  

busy looking at the markets and the economics of  yesterday to release the labor response if they  

have if they're not opposing that they're cutting  the 45 rate I'm very disappointed to hear that  

um but if they're not going to do it we have to  do it and um we have to explain to people how  

this is going to affect them we have to explain  we have to make it as clear as possible clear  

explanations that Reach people look if you allow  the rich to get richer if you allow inequality to  

increase a massive rate that hurts you your family  your kids ability to buy houses your ability to  

put food on the table your ability to heat your  home you are in a competition for resources with  

the very rich and if we give a ton of money to  them and a bit of money to you you'll get hurt  

we need to explain that to people I think that is  if I think if people understood what the future  

held for them and their families economically they  would not accept it 70 80 90 of this country would  

not accept it so we need to find ways to explain  that to them to cross the divide and then and then  

the labor party would have to move because if  people understood the importance of inequality  

and of wealth inequality the importance of wealth  wealth inequality to them and their families they  

would demand of the labor party do something about  wealth inequality and they would have to do it so  

you know I always ask what can I do you know if I  can explain to people how serious it is for their  

lives their future their family's future that we  do something about inequality they would demand  

of the politicians and then whoever's in charge  they have to move because if the people insist  

it then the politicians have to give it so I say  communicate to people clearly to your friends to  

your family you know I always say my YouTube tell  your friends tell your families what's happening  

if people understood it they wouldn't accept it  and I think that is the way that we can do it  

about future so brilliant thank you to both of you  so I believe that we are coming to the close of  

the show now is that right people yeah yeah next  segment coming up very very soon uh there's a very  

very special guest coming but don't forget to keep  your super chats coming in because one of the ways  

that we can communicate with people is through the  world transformed through Gary's YouTube channel  

join us Gary's economics join uh join a union  as well whether that's the biggest Union whether  

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or someone like that you know there is a trade  Union for you uh also subscribe to socialist Think  

Tank and uh the world transformed as well and make  sure you get those super chats coming in because  

the people at World transformed are doing so much  good and so much to educate people to help people  

and you know they deserve a lot of support let's  show them the solidarity we have someone coming  

in you know I don't even know who it is do it do  we know who it is yet someone very very special  

is coming in so I'm going to hand you over to Dan  thanks very much to Gary Round of Applause please  

and Sarah we've been socialist Think Tank  enjoy the rest of the world transformed