Welcome back to Gary's Economics.

Today we have got a guest on the channel.

I'm introducing Jimmy the Giant.

Is that what we’re calling you? Yes.

So Jimmy the Giant has a YouTube channel

where he talks politics, economics, subcultures.

He's got a video on there

called How I Escaped the Alt-Right Pipeline,

which talks about how

he was a big fan of Jordan Peterson. Yeah.

And how he's been watching a lot of stuff.

He's been watching our channel,

and it's made him more skeptical about

these rightwing ideas, it’s

made him more interested in inequality, economics.

A lot of people have been messaging saying

we should chat.

I’ve been wanting to get more people on, basically

to talk about what we're doing.

More YouTubers, people

who are talking about the same thing.

So, welcome to the channel, Jimmy. Hello. Hello.

Really, the main thing I wanted to talk about,

the main reason I wanted to have you on is because.

So,

as you know,

I've been doing this thing for a while, right where

I'm trying to create a space where

people who are worried about the economy can come.

They feel like welcomed.

They feel like they can understand what's happening.

They feel like empowered,

and they can just develop this understanding

in a way that's like, not,

like a non-hostile space.

Because the way I see it is

bringing people to the YouTube...

look, at the end of the day, what I'm doing,

I'll be straight with it, it’s a political project.

Yeah, yeah. It's a political project.

And

this might sound,

I honestly think there is nothing

more powerful politicising

than giving people

a good understanding of what's happening. Yeah.

Because the reality of what's happening here

is just going to get worse.

And I think this so,

I just shot a Musk video before this

and I know you're going to shoot one.

He's the gift that keeps giving for content.

He's going to be funding a lot of this

like anti-immigrant rhetoric right. Yeah.

Obviously we are never going to be able to compete

for funding with people like Elon Musk.

Where we can compete is,

the reality of the situation is

if we keep going in this direction,

poverty will get worse and more

and more people will be in poverty.

And they can never say that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, they will say that, and they’ll say it’s

because of immigration.

This is one I've been kind of confused about is like,

this is about immigration,

but it ties obviously into economics.

Why would right-wingers who are in big businesses

like an Elon Musk,

I think I understand for Elon,

but there's other examples.

Why would they be anti-immigration?

Because for them, obviously immigration

is better for their business largely.

So by the time this comes out

my Musk video be out and it's described in there.

But I'll go through it.

I mean to be honest,

this the way I see it, the way I see it,

it makes total sense, right. Because

in my opinion, economy is going to keep getting worse

in terms of living standards.

And it's already been getting worse for a long time.

And people are super,

super unhappy with the status quo,

with the way things are.

So if things keep getting worse,

people demand some sort of change on the economy.

They're like,

we know that this direction is not working.

We need something else.

There's this quote from Milton Friedman,

which is like at times of crisis,

the alternative will be chosen

from the ideas lying around at the time.

So we are in a state in society now,

I think anybody really smart recognises

we're going downhill. Yeah.

And as you keep going downhill

eventually politically in democracies,

some kind of change has to be sold to the public.

So then we're looking around and we’re like,

okay, what are the alternatives?

It's really, really obvious

what the number one loudest,

most popular alternative is right now.

Like is these anti-immigrant,

anti-foreigner political parties

massively growing in popularity all over the world.

They are the loudest voice.

What's the second loudest voice?

I honestly think the second largest voice is us.

Not just me, but like, you know,

you look at this,

Luigi Manzoni, you know, the support for him.

The alternative is Yeah, tax the rich.

And the right uses all...

That's always what populist right does.

It takes elements of populist left rhetoric.

So they will be anti corporations.

Like you see this weird

crossover where very rightwing

people will be anti corporations

or anti certain billionaires.

Because for them it's always about making a scapegoat.

And you can do that within even the billionaire class.

You can say like,

you can say billionaires are great like these people.

They fund our economy, they make jobs.

But it's those billionaires

and they always tend to end up

being the ones they don't like,

which is always the Jewish ones.

So they'll point out to George Soros and, you know,

certain ones.

That's maybe a little less true,

because they also point out,

like Bill gates and stuff like that,

but they'll pick certain ones.

Maybe the ones that align to like,

it seems actually more it's

the ones that maybe have some left wing

values or something

they pick, say, the left wing billionaires,

the ones who are bringing the world down,

but they understand that.

Yeah, well, everyone's always looking for an enemy.

In a time of crisis,

you're looking for an enemy,

and they understand

that, the billionaires understand that

and they are looking for, well,

how do we make it not us?

How do we keep some form of the status quo

but it's not us gets targeted?

So we pick these billionaires and these migrants.

Yeah, I think

these guys have lots and lots

and lots and lots of money.

And I think they understand

on like a pretty simple level,

we need

to fund

really

any potentially popular narrative Yeah.

that is not blaming us. Yeah.

Ultimately not a lot of people put money into

like funding this narrative building. Yeah.

So the billionaires don't need to pay that much

to kind of dominate the narrative the narrative. Right.

Because also it's like,

this is the thing I came

to the enlightenment of, and it's crazy

it took me some f**king long,

but it was like

there is the separation of left

wing economics, the left wing social values.

So the way that a right-winger

can look at the world and say it's overrun by leftist

is because they're talking about social values

and they're talking about like LGBT representation,

discussions on race, discussions on gender.

They consider that the left.

Whereas you could,

I mean, you can literally not believe

in any of those things.

You could be a racist lefty on economics,

but right wing on social values,

so they can paint the world

as being overrun by leftists

where we're so right wing on economics.

And because people don't have this education

of understanding this terminology,

it gets so confusing.

Because they can say, oh look at the left and their,

you know, LGBT flags

on Oxford Street and blah, blah, blah,

we’re controlled by the left.

And you’re like,

but bruv, we have like f**king

foreign billionaires own our water,

they own our f**king railway.

It's like,

it'd be insane to think that we're left

on economics in this country.

I mean, we have obviously some safety nets.

Yeah But that's

how they perceive the world from this lens.

And it's like,

that's a level of education

people need to start understanding.

That separation of left wing social values

and left wing economic values.

And that's the thing I try...

I talk a lot on economics. Yeah.

Because I personally believe like a lot of social

things are downstream of economics. So I think you,

in societies where it's more equal,

you probably find there's less discrimination.

So I sort of believe in that rising tide floats

all boats in this premise where it's like,

if we can reduce inequality,

if we can raise people's living standards,

you'll probably find less racists,

and you'll probably find that people get along,

maybe, not 100%.

You still need to put efforts into those things,

but I think you have, this is like putting your...

I think when you over focus on like the social issues,

you're putting your cart

before your horse for the cart,

whatever the f**king expression.

Yeah. I mean, you know, you know, I do like.

I just, I barely speak about social issues.

I mean, the only reason I've,

I've been talking a little bit

more about immigration recently,

and I'll tell you exactly why.

I'm not an expert on social issues, right.

You know, and I'm not an expert on immigration.

I'm an expert on economics.

The reason I’ve started thinking

about immigration is because

I started seeing it in the comments.

I started seeing in the comments.

Yeah, yeah. It’s all I get..

Obviously my channel’s called Gary’s Economics.

We talk about economics, right?

And

it was about a year ago,

maybe more, like a year and a half.

I started to see,

people talking about immigration in the comments

and I was

quite confused initially because,

like, immigration

was not really previously seen as an economic issue

and it first started popping up here and there and,

then it started popping up more

and more and more and more and more.

And I started to see

some people are definitely being told the reason

you’re poor is because of immigration.

That's everyone's been told that by everything.

Yeah, I remember I was watching...

so I watch like BBC news,

Sky news every morning

when I'm eating my breakfast because I want to see

like what people are being told.

Still you watch, this is what you watch now?

Yeah still, still, still.

I don't watch a lot of like alternative economic stuff

because what I want...

I want to know what the majority of people

are being told. What is the mainstream narrative.

That's probably from your...

That's probably what made you good at economics,

because when you were in the book,

you were talking about asking your mates

why they're struggling in the economy

rather than reading stuff

because you're trying to get

like you're trying to see the world

from the perspective of the people you want to help.

Yeah.

To be honest it probably related a little bit to

when I was a trader, because as a trader,

for me it was always these two things.

It was like, what's the reality? What's the reality?

What's going to happen?

But the time you make money as a trader

is when the reality is different from the popularly

perceived opinion.

Like if people are right about something,

then the prices are right and there's no money.

Like when there's money as a trader

is when there's a big gap between what's real

and what most people think.

So this is where the market is like

saying, this thing’s good, but you’re

seeing it, that in reality, this isn’t like this.

Yes, for me when I look at market,

you know,

I don't know if you've seen these trading floors,

they have all these screens with all these numbers.

Right.

It sounds like bulls**t.

But like when I see those numbers, it's like a forecast

for what's going to happen.

Like those numbers to me

are like a weather forecast like this,

you know, in six months time this will happen.

In three months time this happened, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm looking at that forecast and I'm saying,

is that really going to happen?

Is that really going to happen?

So like, you know, my big trade was after

2008 saying rates and stay low,

people thought rates would go high.

And that was basically because they thought

the economy would recover. Interesting.

How did you have the like

I know, sort of tangent,

but how did you have the confidence

because you were new in that job,

I suppose, at that point, you’d

only been there a couple of years?

Well,

I didn't really start betting on it until early 2011,

by which time I'd been full time for

just over two and a half years.

Because I'd be

I'd be like, wow, I'm too new at this job.

I'm probably like, wrong.

Maybe I have this intuition.

But probably I'm wrong.

But, you know, the thing is, like.

I went to LSE, you know, like, so I was like,

quite like a talented student in my primary school.

And then I went to grammar school, and

I was kind of like the smartest kid

in the grammar school.

You know, and then I went to LSE

and I thought LSE would be full of smart kids.

But the maddest thing about LSE in particular.

You know about LSE, right?

LSE, for those who don't know,

London School of Economics,

like a very fancy economics university London and, and,

loads and loads of foreign students.

I don't want to disrespectful to the foreign students

at LSE right.

A lot of these guys are not that smart.

Of course some of them are.

But at the end of the day,

the truth is

they're there because they're from very rich families.

Yeah.

And and the thing is, they don't even, often

they don't even need to be smart.

Yeah.

Because they're going to go home

and they're going to work like for like the government

or like for their dad's company or...

Some of the kids

dummest kids I've ever met were dumb as f**k.

And they're there.

The truth is, a lot of these guys

go to LSE to find a husband or a wife.

I know that sounds mad, But the thing is...

And they work for Goldman Sachs for a few years

and then they go, so they...

and then when I went into the trading,

when I went to trade, I remember being like one...

like one game theory class in third year LSE.

And the professor asked this question.

It was, I thought it was quite an easy question.

And he asked one guy.

Nothing. Another guy.

Nothing. Another guy. Nothing. Another.

They don't, they don't f**king care.

They don't care.

And then they're going to go

and they're going to memorise

the last five years of exam papers,

and they're going to get like 71,

and it's going to be good enough for them,

you know what I mean? Like, and.

How do you make like...

this is one of the ones that drives me insane.

I used to believe it,

and it's funny how much I flipped, but

how do you make someone who's, like, on the right

understand that, like

meritocracy in that sense, like,

the smartest kid will not be the one that wins

like that?

Yeah, it is literally, I have met so many people,

and I think

if most people really are honest about life,

they will have noticed wealthy people who are dumb

and like they just had good backgrounds.

Like, I've seen that a lot.

I think

luckily from having went to,

I went to like public school

and then I went to a private school.

My parent’s got like inheritance.

So I went to like a private school.

All the kids were loaded.

And I saw quite a few of them are dumb

but obviously they’re kids.

But then when I got older, I worked in marketing.

And then you start like going to these f**king...

I'd be getting taken

to like these manor houses and stuff

where they would rent the whole place

out to have a marketing...

I don't know what we were doing.

We were just like,

I don't know what we were talking about,

but they would talk and discuss bulls**t

and you would meet some of the thickest people,

like really dumb people,

and they're in like senior positions

or at least doing well.

And it's like,

how do you break through to like, average

people who are maybe on the right

where they really believe this idea

that if you really work hard,

you will get ahead and you will win. Oh my.....

Do you want to ask your question again,

just in case we want to include one

where you don't spill a cup of coffee. Yeah.

So how do you get through to like people

that have really bought into this idea of meritocracy?

That is so clear.

Like, how do you get through to them

that just the smartest person doesn't win?

That isn't true.

I've met a lot of smart people who,

like Akala talked about.

It was like some of the smartest people I've ever met

were drug dealers,

or they went to jail and stuff like that,

and it's like it doesn't correlate.

It is literally your background plays

such a massive role.

I tell you what, I think

it's difficult

to get through to people like that when they're young.

Yeah.

And, you know, I look at my demographics on the channel

and we do really well at like 25-35, 35-45.

We don't do that well with 24 and under.

I’m the same.

And

I think the reason why is when you're 24 and under

and always like this when I was 24 under, you’re on it.

You're going for it.

You’re trying to make it,

you're trying to make your money

and like maybe to some degree

you believe if I go for it,

if I'm going to run for it, I'm going to make it right.

Yeah, yeah.

Very few people above 25 believe that.

Yeah, yeah, It’s so true.

Because the truth is, once you're older than 25,

if you have any visibility, like, of people

from different class backgrounds, you realise, f**k

me literally everyone

I know is exactly as rich as their dad. Yeah.

And you realise it like, you know, like.

I come from a poor background

and then I went to like LSE, I and went to Oxford.

Even the kids, you go to LSE

or, well,

even the kids go to LSE

that come from poor backgrounds.

They don't get good jobs.

The vast majority of them don't get good jobs.

And even the ones that were smart.

And you know like,

I was like, well I was one of the top students at LSE,

my grades were like one of the best,

some of the best grades in the whole university.

You've read my book.

I got my job by cheating in a fucking card game.

Yeah, yeah. Like that is the way. Like it’s...

Like there are so few people,

I'm literally trying to think of a single person I know

other than me

that has significantly

like transitioned upwards, like in terms of,

like where they land. Yeah, yeah.

Like I used to think, you know, when I was,

I was like, definitely.

Yeah.

When you're younger, you're so right.

When you're younger,

you just don't want to be a f**king nihilistic person,

because you want to have some hope in life.

You want to think like,

if I work hard, I can get ahead.

But it's funny for me

how my attitude flipped from pre being like,

kind of like successful now

before I was super like,

anyone can make it, you just have to work hard.

I was looking around,

I was looking at all my friends

who were like doing well and the ones who weren’t.

And I was like, the ones who aren't doing well,

they're not working hard.

And so I made, you know, I was like, got some success.

And then my attitude completely changed

because I started to realise that

the reason I got success ultimately

really comes down to the fact

that my parents own their house.

I didn't have to move out of the house

until I was out 25, so my parents...

and I didn't go to uni.

My parents just allowed me to d**k around for like

eight years. I was just allowed to...

I told them, I'm going to make a clothing brand,

I'm going to make a vegan food stand.

And they, you know, they didn't charge me rent.

And so I'm already like all those factors

already not having to get out.

So I didn't have to get a full time job,

didn't have to pay rent.

So I have so much more time to take opportunities.

So meritocracy,

I do sort of believe

that meritocracy exists in the middle class.

If you're in a position where you have some comfort

and you haven't got to jump into some life commitment

at the age of 18 of some job,

because you need to make rent,

you can have like 6 or 7 years to figure s**t out,

take chances. And it's a game of probability.

Like the more chances you take, one of them will pop.

And for me, it worked out.

By the end of it, I'd gone and done a lot of hard work.

But the reason being I could do that

is because I had all that extra free time,

that most people didn't f**king have.

The reason my YouTube career popped off

was because I got furloughed

for two months as one of my videos went viral,

so I had two two months just to work on YouTube videos.

So I had the time.

I think, one thing I've been,

I've been wanting to talk about this

for a while, actually.

One thing about social mobility is,

social mobility exists at a very zoomed in scale.

So what I mean is if you take two people

from the same like financial background,

you know, two kids grow up next door to each other

on the same street.

If one of them, like, works really, really, really hard

and studies really, really hard.

And the other one, you know, sits around smoking weed.

Yeah.

Like most chances

this guy will end up richer than that guy. Yeah.

But if there's a kid, like ten minutes

down in the nice neighborhood.

He's from a much richer family.

That kid can sit around and smoke weed.

You’ll never catch him.

Yeah, yeah, You’ll never catch him.

What I mean is, like.

So it is true for people...

and what that means is then

social mobility seems real

because people compare themselves

to people on the same level.

I always remember... It's the same for me, man.

Yeah, my dad, my dad,

he won't like me calling him out on this,

but my dad is like he's a little bit Reformy,

you know what I mean like.

They all are.

There's a lot of people supporting Reform, right?

So we shouldn't take the...

we shouldn't mock it, right.

My dad is a bit like that. Yeah.

And he was like,

he was this kind of, you know, we just work hard.

We get our head down, you know,

we don't like point fingers.

We don't look at the rich and,

There's that Thatcher era,

that comes off the back that. He went... Yeah, yeah.

And he was like, he was like a big Thatcher fan.

And he probably was the generation that won off that.

Yeah, he was like 21/22 when Thatcher came in

and they thought it was like

cool and sexy, or whatever. But

he went

for a walk around the area he grew up with my mum.

They're from South London,

and they walked around Balham.

And they saw in an estate agent's window a street...

a house on the street My dad grew up, cost

more than £1 million.

And I think that's when he realised,

well it can't work.

Yeah. Like the...

How can social mobility exist

when the amount of money that I need to give my kids

the life that my dad gave me,

his dad was a bus conductor, right,

Is completely impossible

to get, no matter how hard I work.

Like that's the thing

that, this is the thing when

house prices become £1 million a house, £2 million

a house,

that means that social mobility

can only exist at a zoomed in level.

That means that, like,

no matter how hard you work,

even the amount of money I made Yeah.

I went to uni with kids from LSE, like,

it doesn't matter what I do,

I will never be as rich as them. Like, I will make,

you know,

very, very few people

will ever make the amount of money I made.

I will never even be able

to touch these guys, regardless of what they do.

Like, so, and that's

what it means when house prices are like that.

Yeah.

Well,

you were saying, and this is something

I've sort of thought about a lot

is like the separation of,

how would you word it, like

what can be true on an individual level,

doesn't necessarily ring true for a big group.

So like on an individual level,

and this what I say,

if I was to talk to a friend and be like,

and they would...

or like some young 18 year old lad

and he wanted life advice.

I would tell him all the libertarian,

go pull yourself up, go to the gym.

I would tell him all that s**t.

Yeah, but I would be insane

to think that

everyone in society

that that advice even works for everyone.

On an individual level,

you can probably improve your life

slightly like you’re example’s good.

If you had two guys from a working class background

one sitting around playing COD and smoking all day

and the other one's like working, he will get ahead.

He's probably never going to buy a house,

but he's probably going to get ahead

and the other guy's probably not.

So on an individual level,

while it is true, if you were to work harder,

probably you would improve your life fractionally.

It's the dumbest advice on a macro level.

Yeah. I want to be like really clear.

I ain’t telling nobody don't work hard.

And I never said...

That's where the left gets a bit lost.

I ain’t never said to anybody don't work hard.

And I'm not against making money like I've been poor,

you know and I ain’t going to tell...

you know.

Anybody out there, and I'll work f**king hard.

I worked hard, I worked hard to get my job

and I worked hard in my job,

and I worked hard to make money

and I'm supportive of all these things. But that...

and this is a big thing,

which I think about a lot nowadays is like,

I also understand that

class interests exist. Yeah.

And we live in a world where very rapidly

the middle class is losing to the super rich and

on an individual basis, these rich guys will win.

They will win.

Like you cannot compete

with these guys, they’re to rich, they’ll win.

And over time, that wealth will pass out of your class

and into their class.

And because you can't win on the battle of money,

you have to play the game of politics.

You just f**king have to.

You have to play the game of politics.

If you don't play that game, you’re going to lose.

But how do we communicate to people

that you basically, you have to do both.

In the sense that you have to work hard

and you have to save your money.

You have to try and invest,

you have to do all these things.

But if you don't play that political game

on the same team

as that guy that lives next door to you

as the same team as the guy in your football team,

as the same team

as, like the people you go to school with

is the same team as it, you know? That's why...

If you don't play that political game,

you basically you have to do both.

I think that is where the right does really well

with the young male demographic is because it offers

an empowering message, albeit stupid,

like to tell young people they can somehow, you know,

become a billionaire. It's like it's outrageous.

But to a young person who has no life experience

and no understanding of like complicated systems,

power structures and how they affect you,

that optimistic message will always sell to a good,

especially young men

who are being told they need to go and provide

need to become powerful and strong,

and we idolise that.

That's always going to win against this nihilistic

realism.

But this nihilism, this pessimistic, sad attitude

that I guess is what the left,

because we are more realistic

and we understand, like the average person

doesn't really have a f**king chance, that struggle.

So I think we need to find

like a really empowering message to give to people.

And I think what they...

I try and analyze, like what did they do

in like the 1920s and like

when you had the work,

like the labour movements, there

they were empowered, like they weren't p**sies.

They weren't going, man, this f**king sucks.

They were like,

no, we're going to take down the f**king...

I mean, they were like,

some of them were wild communists, but they were like,

we're going to take down the bourgeois,

blah, blah blah.

But they were,

they felt like they were having

a battle against the powerful.

And we can sell that message

like you can talk about how like, we will rise,

we will win and we will fight these people.

And that is more optimistic.

A young lad needs to get behind something.

A young lad doesn't want to sit there and be like,

man, this sucks. We're never gonna get anywhere.

We need to have like a battle and a fight.

And it might be dumb, it might be really stupid,

but I think that's how we have to

frame stuff is this is a big battle that we can win,

but we have to unite and fight against it.

And I think a lot of it is about rhetoric.

Like, I'm quite a believer in rhetoric.

Like, I think you need strong,

powerful ideas that motivate people.

I mean, that's why sort of your channel

caught my eye in a way. The big question I want to ask.

What do you think

we need to do?

What do you think we need to achieve, ultimately?

How do you think we need to play it,

to stop things from getting worse in the long run?

Because I think I struggle with

is I think we’re going to lose.

Yeah. I was talking to my misses about that.

I was saying, like, Gary is a pessimist.

Sorry, I don't mean...

You tell me what you think.

Well, I think that's like,

I think I would say I land on being more optimistic.

I perhaps that's always just how attitude has been.

And I was thinking,

you come across as a realist

and realists are pessimists because reality is

the fight is unbelievably challenging.

And if you're to be a realist, like

you can make the argument.

It's very unlikely.

But I think

that is important to have that realism because

it does keep you grounded.

But I want to make, I want to make clear.

Yeah. When I say, I think we're going to lose.

That doesn't mean

I think we're definitely going to lose.

I wouldn't do this job...

Listen, I'm a trader. I'm a betting man, right?

I wouldn't do this job if I thought,

if I thought we were definitely going to lose,

I'd just be off making my f**king millions.

I'd be in the Philippines somewhere

drinking piña colada, right,

I don't need to do this right.

I think that we have a chance.

I think that we have a chance.

I think that in a sense that because I'm

so pessimistic about the economy,

I think that actually creates

massive political opportunities.

I think that

the level of discontent on the street is massive.

I think that people don't f**king like Nigel Farage.

They just don't see anyone better. That's it, yeah.

I don't...

I think they honestly don't see anyone better.

Look, people hate the Tories.

Increasingly they hate Labour

and Nigel Farage is just like, I’m someone else. Yeah.

And I think that.

I think that there’s a f**king gap.

That's why I would say I'm optimistic.

I like to see a lot of stuff as like

a, like I play board games with my mates

quite a bit, like a lot of strategy games.

And, I wasn't...

I'm not even that good.

Always come second, but I like, my mate is very good.

I have a very smart, mate, and I always...

at the end of the game,

I always sort of like say, how did you do it?

And he's got such a strategic,

or he can think steps forward.

So I have picked up a bit of it

and I like looking at things like that.

So like I see right now, as a massive,

what you're saying, like, a massive opportunity.

Like there's two sides and it requires a lot,

lots of things to go right in order for it to work.

But I can see something like the fact that in Britain,

if we compare like, say,

everywhere is seeing this far right surge.

And that's obviously the fear of people who are like

quite economically left wing or whatever.

The far right surge is worrying.

But we see it in like European nations,

we see it in American...

in America, and we see it a little bit in Britain.

But I think Britain stands in a particularly different,

sort of set of material circumstances.

That make us a little bit less likely

to really fall down that rabbit hole.

And we have a bit more opportunity.

And I think a lot of it,

and it's like every bad thing

can be a good thing at some point.

So we had 14 f**king years of austerity.

And like I think when you look at Reform,

and I know they're a bit clever, like

sometimes they say

some sort of economically left wing thing

or we want to get free rail,

like nationalise the rail and stuff.

But fundamentally their economic beliefs are

small state, cuts,

and like you look at Rupert Lowe, he talks about,

we need to shrink the state

and they're sort of regurgitating that stuff.

I don't think that rhetoric will play

well with British people specifically,

because we've had 14 years of slashing the state.

We've cut half a trillion in planned

spending across those years, and we're all aware of it.

We can see the results of shrinking the state.

So that rhetoric

I know they're always going to lead with immigration

because I can get people in the door.

But if we really jump on, like talking

about their economic policies,

it's exactly the same as what we've had.

And you're basically...

Reform are just saying more cuts.

Like that is fundamentally where it will be.

So if we can jump on them on that stuff.

Then also the second thing is that, Donald Trump, he,

he's like so tied to Reform.

Like if you think the success

or lack of success of Donald Trump is also the lack

or the benefit Reform.

If Trump does really well,

Reform will probably do well.

But if Trump does really bad that's not good for Reform

because they're like in bed with them basically.

So Trump has four years

an our election,

if I'm not mistaken, is just after

when he will come out of office.

Yeah, it should be if it goes five years.

If he doesn't do another coup. Yeah.

So like we've got an opportunity

where we're going to see the Donald Trump era

and then we have our election.

So that is material...

that's like quite a different,

kettle of fish to other people.

Like for us that's really good.

We've had this 14 years of austerity.

We don't like big cuts.

Then we're going to see what Donald Trump does,

hopefully in our like from a gameplay mechanics

sort of perspective,

you want Donald Trump to kind of fail like it will

it will help us.

And so then after that, hopefully in those five years

we'll have enough time to push this message.

And the other thing is Reform are f**king

doing really well right now.

All the attention’s on them, right now.

Can they keep that momentum for five years.

And can we come up in that period of time.

That's my... I think...

not to again be the pessimist.

Go on. So I think,

I don't think Donald Trump

will stop American living standards from falling.

So I think you're right in that

because I think he's committed

to cutting tax on the rich.

I don't think that's going to be good.

I think living standards

will keep falling in the States.

The problem we have

is that I also think Labour will fail.

Yeah, that's our problem.

So, and that's...

and it’s weird in a way because of course,

Labour are supposed to be a centre left party.

Trump and the Republicans supposed to be a centre

right party,

but they will both failed because of the same reason,

which is that they will not deal

with growing inequality.

And I think I haven't spoken about this yet, but like,

the next election will be interesting

because the right will be split

between the Conservative and Reform.

Labour, I think, will almost certainly do pretty badly.

So you could end up with this kind of weird

three way split.

Labour will probably also lose more to the Greens.

But that's to assume that Labour won't get taken over.

So this is, this is That's what we need to do.

And this is,

you know, what I wanted to ask you

then after this was like

after this sort of,

you know, what do you think our chances are?

I wanted to sort of zoom in a bit more on

you and me, because you and me are you and me.

And what we need to do is what is like

the best thing from our strategic position. Yeah, yeah.

Which is, what is the best thing for like us to do.

Because my plan... I think

there's going to be an opening.

I was going to say,

I think there's going to be an opening on Labour.

But to be honest, I kind of think, f**k Labour.

Not in that sense.

I don't want to be like, I hate Labour.

But what I mean is,

I think our only chance is to get the idea,

that inequality is the cause of living standards,

bang at the front of the conversation.

And it doesn't...

because you look at Rupert Murdoch, right?

He doesn't f**king lobby the Conservative Party.

He f**king tells the people what to think.

And then the Conservative Party

have to do what he says,

because if he controls what the people believe,

then that pushes it it doesn't matter. Yeah.

And you know, don't get me wrong.

You know, I would love to have Labour

coming to me and saying, you know, come.

But the truth is,

even if Labour were behind

me, if the public didn't believe

that you need to deal with inequality,

Labour couldn't do s**t anyway.

So I think that, okay, look at our YouTube

channels are whatever, medium sized or whatever.

But like we have a public voice

and we can to some degree influence

what the public think.

And an engaged voice like our audience,

I think they feel...

and that's what I like reading in the comments.

And I see it in yours as well. It doesn't sound like...

people are kind of like on our side

and they're like champion, championing us.

And that's like a good sign for like some kind of,

like movement or something

is that you've got people

that, you're giving them faith, like,

you're giving them something,

someone that can help fight for them.

And that's like a good thing.

I think what you're saying is right, personally, like,

I would happily see

just a pressure group, could be a party,

like, only like Ukip were very good

at pressuring the Tories, and I'm not opposed to that.

My hope would be that you make a pressure group

that forces Labour in a direction.

And what you're saying,

if you can force the public attitude.

Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Like push the public.

At the end of the day,

if I'm right on this, and I think I am right.

The public are f**ked

if you don't deal with inequality. Yeah, yeah.

And if the public know that,

if they really know that,

then it doesn't f**cking matter what Labour do

and it doesn't matter what the Conservative do,

it doesn't matter what Farage does,

because

the public can say,

we are not going to vote for f**king

anyone who doesn't deliver on this issue.

And I think that that is, that is

what I would hope to achieve.

And when I say that, like

this is one of the reasons why

I kind of wanted to have you on, it’s not just me,

and it's not just you, and it's not just me and you.

This is a societal conversation.

And if enough people get behind this idea and it's...

obviously because we have YouTube channels,

we can amplify our voices.

But everyone has a f**king voice.

So everyone, everyone goes out like, this is not just

this is not something

that will be decided on YouTube, right?

Like people are going to watch this

and then they're going to go,

they're going to go to the pub with their mates, right?

And they're going to talk about it

to their mates, right.

And they're going to go to f**king church,

and they're going to go to f**king mosque,

and they going to go to f**king football,

and they're going to go to a f**king hair salon,

you know what I mean, like. Ultimately,

what I want people to do,

what I want you to do, obviously you're your own man.

What I want the people watching to do

is the same thing I'm doing,

which is f**king convince people.

Yeah. That's such a good point.

Yeah.

Like, if you can just make if, like,

if all job is to try and get the

yappy political guy in your group

to start seeing what we're seeing,

if we can get him on board, he...

and this could be anyone who's literally watching,

you might not have a YouTube channel or something,

but it could just be some bro

who loves his politics

and that,

and he's the guy who will chat about that

amongst his group,

and he will softly influence his group.

And then that can on a...

if that happens on a large scale,

that massively changes.

The one thing I want to say on this

when you mention that is just like,

don't be pricks to your mates,

because I know, like,

you can p*ss people off if you're too aggressive.

Like, and I know that I don't...

I try not to talk, and I hope I haven't done it to you,

I try not to talk disrespectfully about people

who vote for Reform, and people who like

people who like Donald Trump, people

who like Nigel Farage, like, I don't, I don't...

I think these guys are misdirecting you.

We need to be like,

you don't win arguments by telling people around you

that they're fucking pricks. That's exactly right.

Like 100%

like we need to be bringing people in here, man.

We need to be like, supportive, and like,

people are scared, man. People are scared.

People are hating immigrants, right?

Because I watched Sky news the other day

and it said there housing crisis, immigrants. God damn.

As simple as that, right. And people are...

people think,

because people are being told

that they can't get house because of the immigrants.

Yeah.

So like you can't turn around

and be like anyone who wants

low immigration is a racist.

Anyone who wants low immigration is a prick, like.

We need to convince them.

Look, it's the growing inequality.

We need to make that case. And it's not about like,

p*ssing people off and pushing people away, like.

Like people are scared, man.

Yeah, I agree,

that's like one of those ones

where you're saying like, well,

I was thinking earlier, you know,

I said about the meritocracy,

there's a few certain, like, sticking points

that I think people need more information

on, simplified

because at some point people

didn't believe in meritocracy.

At some point people didn't believe

immigrants were the cause of all problems.

But they heard a few little things,

and they built up that story,

that like belief in their head.

And I think like the immigration one is one

I try and attack at the moment.

I've done a few videos, but it's like this zero sum...

people have a massive gap of information

with immigration.

That was a bar.

Information, gap of information about immigration,

because we see it's such a zero sum

way about when it comes to economics.

And, this is like this thing that I realised as I got

older is like, little information on a topic

is worse than no information.

It's like a classic thing people say.

And like immigration is a really good one

because you could say something like, you witness,

I don't know, you worked in this industry.

Say it was like,

I don’t know, you worked at a shop,

you're just stacking shelves or something,

and you noticed that there's now,

like an Asian guy doing that job.

In your head from an individual level,

if you don't understand macroeconomics,

you have seen that guy took your job,

and that's how you see it. But

the understanding around immigration,

how it affects economies is one of these areas,

because we're so poorly informed about it,

you’ll look at it from a surface level

and not have a deeper understanding.

It'd be like looking at the Earth

in front of you and going, the world is flat.

But we know it's not flat

because when we were in school, we were taught about

like how the f**king solar system works and all that.

But because we see things

and we have such a gap of information,

you don't understand, like if an immigrant comes in

and he takes your job, blah, blah, blah, whatever,

you see that as a net negative to your life.

But that immigrant who's come

in, he's bought in, let's say

he needs his haircut once every week,

or he needs to go get his car repaired

and he needs to go buy food.

He goes to the local restaurant.

That immigrant has bought trade

to thousands of businesses.

So like the way we understand economy,

on like an individual level,

when we see this

guy's taking a job,

we're not seeing the wider

invisible effect that he is bringing

benefits the economy.

So like this is one of those things

where if there's a lack of information,

then people will just use their sort of like,

firsthand

interpretation of what immigration

looks like in their life or whatever,

and not expand it out to wider economics.

Like that immigrant is a benefit

because he's bought a load of trade,

or he’s a new customer to this business.

If you fit carpets or whatever

he will one day need his carpet fit.

He will employ you. Like do you see what I'm saying.

And this is one of the topics like the meritocracy,

where that lack of information,

that lack of understanding

allows people

to just say like, yeah, they're taking your jobs,

they're doing this.

They're like,

you know, stealing the houses

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, man, I just

I worry about

the like corrosive effect it has on like,

this community's basically like this.

Because I know that,

you know, people who want low immigration,

they're not racists.

Some of them there are some racists,

but a lot of people are just told

that this is the economic problem, right? Yeah, yeah.

That's why they always say I'm not a racist, but,

and that's why I've got an Asian mate.

Because they're not fundamentally hatred,

they don't have a hatred of their skin colour

or their skin colour, whatever.

They're being told

that they're the root of the problem on a macro level.

Yeah. I just see like it's f**king divisive.

It is.

It's f**king divisive. And,

you know, I come from East London, you know,

and it's like

very, very, very multicultural place, right

and that's not like unique

by any stretch of the imagination.

Like especially when we talk about poorer

people in this country

especially when we talk about the cities.

Especially when we talk about younger people.

It's a f**king multicultural country now, right.

And I worry

that all of this narrative,

all of this like discussion about it,

is driving people against each other

and making people distrust each other.

And for me, like the message

I'm trying to push, the message

I'm trying to sell is like

that group over there, they're gonna take your stuff

and on an individual basis

they're much stronger than you,

and the only way you can defend

yourself is working together. Yeah.

And

if you know the working classes, which is, you know,

the working class is racially diverse

and the working class in this country

is racially diverse. And,

listen talking about the levels of migration

you want is one thing, and like, I'm open to that.

But like if this starts to spill into just like

distrust between

people of different races,

we're f**ked.

Are you saying like you think

instead of trying to dispel

every myth around immigration

or every argument

or whatever, even, you know,

if they have some good arguments or whatever,

instead of going down that route

of trying to debunk and disprove and stuff,

you would say it's better to

just put the attention on the real like problem,

which is obviously inequality.

So like,

are you saying from a strategical point of view,

you don't know how valuable it is to like

go into the ins and outs of why these people are wrong,

but rather try and show why you're right.

This is something I thought about quite a lot.

There's a degree to which it's intentional

that I haven't engaged that much

with the debate on immigration,

because I think it's f**king divisive. And,

I grew up in a very multicultural area, you know, and,

I went to...

the schools I went to, literally,

I went to schools that were like 5% white.

Yeah, yeah.

My school was at least 50%, 60% black,

mainly Nigerians.

So I was just completely normal with it.

I was like, I didn't think about it.

I just feel like if...

I would like to find a way to...

Obviously you’re affected in some way

by being like a small ethnic minority

in a place that you grew up but you,

you form friendships.

Of course, you form friendships

with people from different ethnicities, right. And,

we need to be able to see each other as f**king people,

you know what I mean?

And, like, not just the differences.

So I always, always think that I'm always like,

yeah, no matter how much you think you're different

to, say, a guy who,

even, like, say, someone who's come in as a refugee.

How different,

how different you might think

your lives are realistically

the things that happen on a political scale,

those decisions

the same decision

if they raise a tax on,

you know, working class people, or if they,

I don't know, if they cut, more

so, if they cut a certain public service,

if they underfund the NHS,

both you and the refugee

are very negatively affected

by that exact same decision,

whereas the very wealthy person,

they have private healthcare.

So like your lives are affected by the same decisions

in very similar ways.

If house prices go up, that affects you.

And the guy who goes to the mosque

like your lives are both very negatively affected.

The billionaire or the millionaire, even

they make money off of that.

So it's like you got to start seeing

that the same things are affecting

the people we think we have a lot of differences with.

Our lives are so similar, I'm sure. Let's talk about

how much do you think

we could achieve on YouTube,

and what do you think is the best way

to be effective?

Yeah, I think

so my channels are projected like 2 to 3 years

I’ll probably have like a million subs

which is like big.

That's really big.

And I mean like videos, it

depends, but it means on average

they'll probably hit like half a million views

and some like a million more often.

And that's massive. And if my channel probably is...

I think your trajectory is probably steeper.

So yours would probably be

in a similar category

and bearing in mind

that would put us three years out from the election,

so we'd be in a bigger position at a time

where we're still like, we're coming close to election.

So that's like quite good.

And I think if we can make this ecosystem

like it's great

that we're doing this because it's

like if we can make an ecosystem

of very similar creators and we talk to each other

and we make cool, interesting, fun, engaging content

that's relatable for just like average people. Yeah.

I think,

I don't know, I see it as a very powerful thing.

Like, you got to think like Joe Rogan and all them lot,

they all came from, like it was small in the beginning.

Yeah. But it was well connected.

And there were interesting people

from different backgrounds

and like, people love their culture.

They loved the thing that it was like,

you felt like you listened to Joe Rogan,

you go to the gym,

you're probably into

maybe you got a little side hustle or something,

and you felt like you're part of a thing.

And I think if we can create

something like that,

especially like, you know, we

we talk a lot about young lads,

but I think, like on in my sort of channel and stuff,

but I think like

if we can give something for young lads

I think would be great because if we can connect them

then it will, yeah, it will just galvanize people.

So I think we have a good timeline of doing this.

This idea

about like an ecosystem of different creators.

One of the reasons I wanted to have you on

is because I don't actually watch a lot of YouTube.

I know you don't.

I don't watch a lot of social media.

Yeah, except for my ASMR, don’t

out me for watching ASMR.

So I don't watch a lot of social media.

I know you all are a lot more clued in.

So maybe you can talk a little bit about

other creators that you think are doing good work.

That people watching might want to go check out.

And also about like,

whether you are doing work yourself to try to sort of

build a bit of community

that is trying to do something

a little bit more political.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I've started a discord

like maybe a year ago,

and that’s doing like pretty well.

I think we’ve got like 2000 people and it's fairly new,

but they're super active and they’re always chatting.

So like,

I've been,

I understand

the need to do the connecting the people and that,

so I'm trying to get more into streaming

because that's like the perfect

platform for doing that.

So I've been working on like,

it's tough getting the time to stream,

but the goal is anyway to stream

a lot more and do collabs of different people.

And like a list of creators, I would say,

who are like killing it.

That are sick, that I could see coming together

as a people like Ordinary Things, he's sick.

We don't agree on everything.

But on the general problems

about like inequality and stuff.

We're like pretty clued in, on that.

And he makes great videos. They're very funny.

He's just a Britishy lad, like,

you know, so Ordinary Things.

And he's got a big audience. A million, whatever.

Just Some Geezer.

He's a younger, newer creator,

but he's been making these, like, pieces

on, like, right wing people.

So he did one on, like, Tommy Robinson,

and he did one on, like, Piers Morgan.

And they're really good. He's quite funny as well.

So I want to, like, connect that with him.

Who else?

There's a geezer by the name of Tom,

is it Tom Nicholson? Tom Nicholson?

Yeah, he's much, I’d say he's a smart bru.

He's like a brains.

He makes incredibly good videos and he’s

yeah, he's funny and he's very switched on stuff.

And his academic side is good

because it makes you like,

learn stuff that maybe you gloss over. Whatever.

Who else?

A Different Bias. He's a guy who makes daily...

He's great, right.

So we’ve got all these big video essay channels

where we talk about very nebulous

big topics,

but, A Different Bias,

he makes, like daily

political commentary on British stuff.

And he's very good.

He's funny.

They're off the cuff and they're like, good.

So there’s people do this stuff.

There’s people doing stuff, and they're funny.

The charismatic people like, they think...

I often think like, it's going to need that.

It's going to need lots of different people

doing lots of different things. And like.

And I think streaming and podcasts,

like connecting these people

because that, that's like where everything's at.

And I would like to say like, people watching,

If you're interested in creating,

like we need more people doing it,

we need more people do.

And people message me sometimes, you know,

should I go into, should I study economics?

I'm quite anti it.

But we need people studying economics.

We need people buying into political parties.

We need people going to the media.

We need people doing like creative stuff.

We need people creating art.

Yes. Like musicians bruv.

Yeah, whatever. Like wherever you are. Like

if you're thinking about getting involved.

Yeah. Get involved. And in your own way.

What you’re saying is right about music,

music is massive.

Like I want to start making more music.

You need to start making music.

Get Gary on the mic.

But yeah, like musicians and stuff.

Because if you go back and listen to that

old Akala, Fire in the Booth.

You listen to it.

The man just f**king explained inequality in a song.

But I want to encourage people like, Akala is great,

but you don't need to be Akala.

No. What I'm saying is,

we can all be influential in the sphere that we’re in.

We can all be like

you know, it might be like,

you might just reach wherever your school

we have people here who are still in school.

You might just reach people in your workplace like.

Make something like, do something.

Reach people around you. That's what I would say.

And I think, yeah, like,

I know I keep banging on about that types of people.

And I know it's sort of dumb and on a personal level

don't really care.

But like if you're someone, if you're like a geezers

is f**king

absolutely TRT’d out

and you're massive

and who in our areas

looks like that is making that content,

and can speak to people that are similar like that.

Same for like if you’re

like a f**king lad from the ends,

like if you started doing content

or just doing something and talking about these topics

you're going to speak to so many people

that the really academic lot who are great,

they're never going to reach

and they're never going to appeal to you.

Yeah that's what we...

you need like,

the more diversity of voices,

the more diversity of voices.

And it can work in weird ways, it can work.

Like I remember when I was a kid,

when grime popped off

and it was like it was Dizzee Rascal and it was Kano

and it was Wiley.

And like for me, those guys were me.

Like, I was like, these guys are me like,

so you never really know, like.

Yeah and it's like when, so like...

I would like to add to a point like, you know,

we need women doing this as well.

Like, I know, like I see the dem’s,

I see the demographics on my channel.

I know it's mainly men watching,

like everybody is welcome here.

And we need people,

we need people of all different demographics.

And the ladies they’re a bit more ahead of us, man.

They're more left wing,

so they're doing a good job already.

So like we're trying like but yeah,

keep doing what you're doing.

The ladies are smashing it.

We need to pick up the the slack our end I think.

But, yeah. I might need to try...

Women are killing it. I’ll try to get people more...

as many people on as we can.

But anyway, I want to get to my next question.

I know you've been following this channel for a bit.

Is there anything that we've been talking about that

you think it's not clear

that you would like understanding better?

Is there anything we haven't covered

that you would like us to cover?

Yeah.

The one that does jump to my mind is

if the wealthy own assets.

I understand the housing.

I can see, I can definitely understand

the argument

why housing, owning housing is very negative,

net negative generally for people.

If they own stocks in companies

would the right wing argument not be correct,

that that would bring more money

to invest into the company to bring more jobs.

And is that a fair argument?

There being more wealth is not a bad thing.

You know, if they’re creative,

if wealth is being creative, that's a good thing.

The problem is, is transfer. It's transfer.

So like if those stocks used to be owned by

ordinary people

and then one generation down,

then the other ordinary people don't have them.

This is a problem.

It's a problem because you need to that's

that's what your pension is basically.

You’re owning pensions.

So like if these guys are owning the stocks

and you're not owning the stocks,

well then how are you going to pay for your retirement?

You see what I'm saying. So

So is there like statistics to say that like

at some point

working class or middle class

families owned more stocks

and now more stocks are landing

in the hands of billionaires?

Is that probably something to say there?

Well, I mean, a lot of young people are just

are not I’ve never even thought about it.

Like pensions, you know,

I mean, like pension contributions,

like it's it's becoming

way more difficult for young people to own pensions.

These guys think.

But the truth is like

so that kind of private asset in this country,

the working class has never had like a massive share

of those.

You've kind of clicked something in my head, I get it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like in a country like Germany or the US

where there's more of a culture

of owning stocks and shares for the working class,

they will see more like they’re

losing stocks and shares.

In this country, the truth is, like

the middle class never owned

a huge amount, but like our generation versus

our parents generation.

But they were saving pensions more than we were.

What you're saying.

I never put those two together,

that it's pensions that are stocks and shares.

I never put that together.

And I know for a fact that my generation...

Nowadays young people,

just increasingly just don't own stock and shares.

That's what I was going to say.

Like I don't know,

I know very few people that have an actual pension.

And my dad is always like, when we was your age,

we starting building up our pensions. Yeah.

But there's knock on effects, right?

Which is like.

Okay, you don't have stocks and shares,

you don’t have a pension.

Well, that means like, you can't

you can't save much money, you know,

and you can't

you're going to drop your spending, right.

Because you know, like,

oh my God, like I don't have a pension.

You know, I mean, I can't afford this.

And then...

it means

and then also the rich just on the other side,

this is side that doesn't get spoken about.

The rich owning a shit ton is itself a problem.

Because if the rich owned a s**t

ton of stocks and shares

as opposed to ordinary families,

they generate s**t on of passive income.

What are they going to do with that passive income?

Buy the rest of the f**king assets.

And that is why you're f**king...

you can't afford a house, right?

Like if you give these guys loads of money,

the big thing that you see,

if the rich and people think about this,

if the richer a f**k ton of stocks and shares,

of course you can't afford a house.

Like if that guy's making

£100,000 a year passive income.

Yeah, You know.

You can't compete on that.

Yeah, this is the problem.

They drive the house prices up.

And it's not that,

I'm not anti wealth, I'm not anti wealth.

But the truth is like the economy is not zero sum.

But if it's growing very slowly like it is

it's kind of zero sum. Yeah.

And if these guys are getting more

and more and more and more and more,

they start to buy the things that you need, you know,

why do you think it is

that, you know, rents go up in London.

Somebody is f**king paying them.

It's the f**king rich people that are paying the rents,

you know what I mean, and that's what they drive

the price of everything that you need.

Yeah that clicks that.

The pensions thing

that made that more,

yeah, that's a good way of explaining that

because I didn't I never even thought I was like,

when did we have stocks and shares?

But then I realise

obviously pensions are stocks and shares.

Yeah you're right. It's not it's a good point.

People don't realise that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well that's

how ordinary people hold their stocks

and shares, in pensions.

It was kind of like, I've noticed that

I don’t know, is their theory about this.

But it's like

I noticed the difference,

so my wife's Ukrainian, which I bang on about,

and they became capitalists in the 90s. Okay.

And they're,

they didn't,

to give you perspective,

They didn't have restaurants until like the 2000s,

you'd go to like a canteen,

and it wasn't going to be like state of the art.

You just grab it and f**king bang it on a plate.

In the 2000s, you see, like this insane rise.

Well, really, it's sort of late 2000s into 2010s. Yeah.

You see a rise in

what you could probably call

like early stage capitalism, where there's like a real,

what people think capitalism is, which is go work hard,

have a good idea and life will rewards you.

That kind of exists in this sort of Wild West

early stages of the Ukrainian economy.

And so a specific thing I noticed, it's very specific,

I don't know if it's too granular

to make any grand points about,

but is

I notice that if you go to Ukraine,

if you go to a cafe, you walk into that cafe,

it will look perfect.

It will be incredible.

Every cafe, not just like one of them,

every one of them.

And you walk in, you go to the toilets.

The toilets are immaculate. They cleaned, they are...

I know this is very random, we’ll come back to it.

Learning a bit about Ukraine. Yeah.

You’ll go in, toilets are perfect.

Smells nice. They have high quality soaps.

You come back

after you've taken your dump and you eat your food.

Food's amazing, obviously.

You wipe...

I'm not just advertising Ukraine,

there is a point here, you want your mouth.

You put your tissue down,

the staff comes, they take the tissue.

Everything's perfect, right.

You come to England,

you go to the toilets of most cafes.

They stink of s**t. There's toilet paper everywhere.

And if you go to like.

You know,

you wait, you want someone to f**king serve you,

you need to scan an app. The QR code doesn't work.

They take ages to get to you.

And I wanted to know, is there like this theory

that when an economy is growing, they're competing?

The belief in capitalism

is that there's competition drives innovation.

In the early stages of creating an industry

does that competition create innovation?

But when they've achieved their customers,

they've got a customer base,

I believe there's a crossover point

where they stop innovating to compete for customers

because they've got their market

and they start looking for shortcuts to make money,

which could be employ less people.

It could be lower the quality of the meat in the food.

Video games I noticed had a very similar trajectory.

They were sick in the 2000s.

Now it's all about loot crates and,

you know, microtransactions and phone games.

Is there a point when you, is there a name

or is there a concept that once you reach, you,

you've caught your audience,

then you stop innovating

and you start, like profit gouging, like you try and...

does that make sense?

It's a big question.

And obviously, you know,

Ukraine is not the only country

which has very high service culture.

I lived in Japan for two years

and the quality of services is phenomenal.

And we can sort of debate how capitalist Japan is.

It's kind of a complicated question.

I think,

there is a thing that can tend to happen where I think,

and I'm, you know, I'm not anti-capitalist.

I'm not not pro capitalist.

I try to just be pragmatic on things.

Capitalism tends to work

well when you have a lot of room to expand.

And this is why, you know, I talk about being

the dangers

of high inequality and people,

sometimes use a counter example,

like the USA, which has high inequality and,

you know, has had for quite a long

time high living standards.

You know, the USA is a, is still a quite a new country.

And,

you know, Europeans arrived there

not that long ago and they were able to expand

almost freely

because they were basically able

to take most of the land over time from the natives.

So it's a f**king massive country to expand into,

and it doesn't really matter

if the rich, get really f**king rich.

If you have like infinite land

and natural resources over there

because like, you can get really f**king rich

and I'll just go over there. Start something new..

Yeah.

So like under that, kind of this like American context

for a long time.

Inequality like,

didn’t really seem that dangerous, right.

Because you can get as rich as you like.

And this kind of concept,

which is like politics of envy works right,

which is like,

you know, we go over there,

you know, like for a long time,

America was effectively infinitely large

from the perspective of Europeans, right,

because it was so big.

And you could just keep going west,

you keep going west,

and there's more land, more land, more resources.

Just go. Just go. Just go.

That is very different to like,

mature, advanced economy, like

Britain's or increasingly like the US now

where every square inch of land is owned.

Yeah.

That's I've heard something about. Yeah.

You kind of connected a thought there,

because I've heard that being called like,

The New Frontier or something like that.

So capitalism works by finding new frontiers,

exploiting the frontier and then moving on to the next.

Yeah.

If there's,

if there's, like another, if there's loads of land,

it doesn't matter if you've,

you've like settled here and you've made this yourself.

There's this infinite that I can just keep going.

But as soon as you run out of land, then suddenly

people can't keep going anymore.

And they need to find land and they need to find work,

they need to find resources. Yes. And then also

the rich are still expanding, right?

Because the rich are still really rich

and they're still expanding.

And then what are they expanding into?

Well, they're not expanding is empty land anymore.

They have to take from somebody else, you know.

So I think capitalism tends to work

well in like young economies that are growing quickly.

The problem is like

when you kind of run out of stuff to expand into

and then what tends to happen

is then the rich start to take the assets of the,

of the middle class and the poor, basically.

One thing that I think is

really, is quite interesting is,

you know,

I made a lot of money in my early, mid 20s

and I did like a f**k ton of investments

and some of the investments were like,

oh let’s invest in a new company.

And let’s build a new thing,

let's build a new restaurant.

And a lot of them were just like,

let's just buy a property. And it's just buy gold.

Almost all of the let's build a new thing failed. Yeah.

And almost all of the let’s buy

an existing thing worked really well, basically.

And that’s,

That's kind of what happens, right.

Because when, once you've got nothing to expand into,

well, it's much easier to just...

because the rich are much richer than the middle class.

Yeah. They can just out bid you. And that is what...

this rise in house prices, rising stock prices,

that is the rich outbidding

the middle class for assets.

That's why at the board games, man.

Everyone should play a board game.

It's very much like the end of monopoly,

which is like, you know, it works fine.

We’re all buying, we’re buying, we’re all buying.

But then suddenly, like, these guys own everything.

And, you know.

It's so logical when you think about it is so logical.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you know,

you look at history like earlier

industrial evolution like it

it wants to expand, it wants to expand.

And that's why you saw like Europeans just...

that's why colonialism happened in a sense.

Like it's like we have all this s**t

expand and go and like take them.

But then eventually, like in a sense, you can view

World War One and World War Two

as basically like they ran out of world to expand into.

And then once you...

but because you're still growing,

you still have all this like excess production,

but you don’t have anywhere to expand into

you have no choice but to fight each other.

And it's like, okay, well,

like, we've already taken over the world.

You've taken over the world.

There's no way to expand into.

Well, but we still producing s**t, we have to,

we have to go to war, basically.

There's no other option. Like it's... Yeah, yeah.

But what you see, what you're seeing now

is like,

the weak hands are being shuffled out

and the weak hand is the western middle class

and the western...

To be honest,

it's not a western elite, it's a global elite

is just absolutely decimating the western middle class.

So it’s the end of a poker game.

Yeah, but then but then what happens

when the middle class goes. Yeah.

You know, once again

they'll be in a situation where the rich....

And that's the thing about capitalism.

The rich will go at each other.

I mean, I mean, that's you know, that's

what f**king Putin is, right?

That is the rich going at each other.

And it's funny that these lot they,

they have the access,

they have the best access to information.

And they should see the writing on the wall

like it would be insane for billionaires. Don't

please don't assume they're intelligent.

No, yeah, I don't believe that. Like these guys.

I think the best way to...

I heard it described as like a Mongol horde.

Yeah.

Like these guys have money, they have power,

they have resources, they want money,

they want power, they want resources.

They're not, you know...

It's like it sounds cartoonish to say it,

but they are so over driven

by greed, their greed will consume them and kill them.

Like capitalism will...

But to be honest, it's more than the greed.

They're just so f**king rich. There's...

it's easy for them.

Like they can outbid you on everything.

They can out bid you on f**king everything.

Like it's not it’s,

like you know Rishi Sunak £700 million.

What's the passive income on £700 million. Right.

5% a year.

He's going to be making £35 million

a year, a half million pounds a week, right.

Conservative.

Yeah.

It's not difficult to outbid

everyone when you're making half a million

pounds a week passive income.

Yeah, yeah.

In fact these guys won't even do it themselves,

they'll have a family office

that all they do is they just buys s**t, buys s**t,

buys s**t, buys s**t, buys s**t,

buys s**t, buys s**t, buys s**t.

And your kid is out there

working a job for 50 grand a year.

He's competing with Rishi Sunak’s kids,

who make half a million pounds a week passive income.

And he's watching Andrew Tate.

Thinking that he can f**king be with him one day.

That’s mad. Yeah.

Just to like make it very simple, right?

Power f**king matters.

If you allow that group to get really,

really, really f**king powerful.

Whilst your group is losing power.

Eventually they'll take everything.

And that is why the vast majority of human

history is a tiny group of super rich elites

and a massive group of impoverished peasants.

Yeah, I don't know how people can like,

hey should just understand inherently through...

if you've even read any story in history,

that's always been the case.

But it's always been.

It’s been a long time now, you know?

But, you know, I read,

I read a lot of classic books

as I'm encouraging you to do.

Go and read Dickens

it’s only 150 years ago we had that here.

That’s the craziest...

the reading about that period of time

that led to World War Two

and then seeing the similarity.

At the time of Dickens,

the UK was easily

the richest, most powerful country in the world,

and your average British person lived in absolute,

desperate poverty. Yeah.

And to believe that

that would somehow pan out differently is just.

Yeah, it just ignores history.

Every story of history.

But, you know, the rich, they've got their own stories

and they've got their own stories,

and their stories are if you work hard, you’ll make it.

Their stories are the reason

you’re poor is because of immigrants.

The reason you’re poor is because of foreigners.

Their stories are just go buy Bitcoin

and you'll be a billionaire, you know.

You know they have their stories too,

they have their stories too. But

what they want is your stuff.

And if you believe their stories, then they'll get it.

But that's the power of story.

And that is, that is why I do this YouTube channel.

And, that is presumably why you try

and do stories as well.

And that's why I like my stuff is like, it's not

I don't put just academic papers. It's I tell a story.

It's like I'm making stories

that you can relate and feel.

There's music,

there's like emotions

because stories are the most important thing.

And your story could be based on a lie or truth.

And so I'm trying to put the truth into a story

that makes people feel something

that hopefully makes them think differently I suppose.

Well, good luck with it. Yeah, and you bruv.

Yeah. Thanks for coming on the channel.

That was fun.

Yeah. Good luck with your stuff.

And, yeah,

all the viewers, Jimmy the Giant,

check his channel out on YouTube and,

yeah, keep supporting us to make more stuff. Take care.